“I am fully aware of the danger I present to earth – and that danger is nothing compared to the lightest touch of the little finger of the annihilation God I have seen”
He didn’t actually split a planet in half, just said it, just like everyman talks out of there cock i am sure he was exaggerating. But he might not have been, either way i don’t think you can use that as a very good example.
Sure, he didn’t actually split a diamond planet in half in that scan. But Pre-CRISIS Superman had sneezed-out a Solar System, from a “Long Dead UNIVERSE” that he traveled to in seconds, and as Superboy had towed a galaxy. So do you doubt that Superman, in Pre-CRISIS days, could split a diamond planet in half with a punch? Hell, for all we know he DID split one in half, and the scan has him referring to it.
The event mentioned in Action Comics #650 REFFER to The events that happened in JLA V1 96-97-98, 121, 183-184-185
Issue 96 mentions at least ONE event from past issues, So technically IT will count as well which are the events from JLA # 94. Issue #97 reffers to another instance in which Snapper Carr ask Superman if He can turn diamond into coal.
JLA 183 also makes a refference of events in CLASSIC JIMMY OLSEN #147
JLA 185 also makes reffernce to events ocurred in Adventure Comics #460 and DC COMICS PRESENTS #17
Also EVERY SINGLE EVENT that happened in CRISIS OF INFINITE EARTHS can be used as canon for any hero.
Supergirl don’t ask me she is just a big continuity mess
Don’t think that CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS is canon for a lot of characters. Superman, Wonder Woman and I believe Batman were all out-right rebooted(I think Pre-CRISIS Wonder Woman was even degenerated into the very clay used to create Post-CRISIS Wonder Woman, but I could be wrong; I think her soul came to Olympus), and I don’t even know what they did with the Marvel Family and all the Fawcett characters. Plus, the Shazam wielders and the Legion Of Super-Heroes were rebooted with ZERO HOUR(followed by the “threeboot” of the Legion later on). Also, Captain Atom and others from the Charlton Comics made their last appearance in original form in CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, and were redone for Post-CRISIS DC.
As far as I’m aware, CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS was always an event that happened, not that it happened, erased the previous Universe and had never happened in Post-CRISIS continuity. It’s just a lot of the past changed and very few were aware of the events, even those that participated who weren’t retconned(like Doctor Light II). I think Spectre, Phantom Stranger and some of the New Gods(at least Darkseid and Metron, maybe Highfather) were most who were still aware of the events that weren’t out-side the time stream or whatever you wanna call Kal-L and the like’s situation.
CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS is specifically mentioned in the timeline in the ZERO HOUR TPB and has been discovered to have happened by scientists at least shown during OUR WORLDS AT WAR, hence why Imperiex Prime chose Earth to “hallow” for the universe’s destruction. As it was the center of both CRISIS and ZERO HOUR.
But what exactly do you mean anyways Alberto? How is it that every single event during this is canon for all characters? Like I said, several characters were rebooted after this, Doctor Light is the only character I can think of off-hand who would have had little to no changes whatsoever who participated, since she first appeared during CRISIS. She just forgot all that happened.
Flash was capable only to run at the speed of sound after COIE this happened right before in the prologue of COIE
In zero hour Parallax explained how he was able to gather residual energy from the anti-monitor on the previous crisis to travel in the time stram and being capable to destroy time lines, the same way AM did
In 52 Dona Troy has a well kept archive of the events that happened in COIE.
I think they mention the events in countdown as well
On HISTORY OF THE DC UNIVERSE the events of COIE happened like 1 or 2 years after the first apparition of Superman in Metropolis.
But BEFORE LEGENDS
You mean Wally could only run at the speed of sound? That was psychological due to Barry’s death.
I’d have to look through that but I don’t recall anything along those lines being mentioned in ZERO HOUR. But I believe the Guardians were some of the few to know what had happened, and Hal mentioned that he got the knowledge to recreate the universe from the Guardians, so that would be more why he knew about CRISIS.
Donna Troy’s continuity is even more screwed-up. Wasn’t she supposed to be a Titan Of Myth or something and out-side the time stream? Been reading 52 though and haven’t gotten to that point where it’s mentioned, when I do I’ll see why she knew.
But still not sure how you’re arguing that all events of CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS can count towards the heroes who participated in it, especially with Superman and Wonder Woman.
But on comicbook time, as far as I’m aware, DC has it so that the JLA had formed 10 years ago, so whatever year it is in the real world, it was 10 years prior. So now it would be 2000 that the JLA was formed, and Superman would’ve been around a little bit longer. But I do not know if they’ve changed that, as they’ve retconned again who the founding JLA members were. I don’t even know if JLA: YEAR ONE is still in continuity at all or not.
You mean Wally could only run at the speed of sound? That was psychological due to Barry’s death.
Yes, I know the cause was retcon afterwards. But at the end of COEI Wally was not longer able to run at the speed of light and the fastest He was able to go was the speed of sound. The Original reason of the depowerment was because AM struck him.
I’d have to look through that but I don’t recall anything along those lines being mentioned in ZERO HOUR. But I believe the Guardians were some of the few to know what had happened, and Hal mentioned that he got the knowledge to recreate the universe from the Guardians, so that would be more why he knew about CRISIS.
Page 6 of the last issue of Zero Hour
Hal is talking to Guy, batgirl, extant, centurion? and triumph about how He found residual energy from the previous crisis and He absorb it.
He even said When We all fought the Anti-Monitor
Donna Troy’s continuity is even more screwed-up. Wasn’t she supposed to be a Titan Of Myth or something and out-side the time stream? Been reading 52 though and haven’t gotten to that point where it’s mentioned, when I do I’ll see why she knew.
Is funny that you say that, because The little robot who is thelling the story to Donna says that to her. The little robot is supposed to be the same recorder that Harbinger used in COIE.
It starts in 52 week 2 and ends in 52 week 11 I think. They mention the events from the 1st meetting of the JLA and the JSA all the way to the IC, passing thru COIE and Zero Hour.
They also mention the events in countdown 49 thru 38. Actually from 49 to 45 they mentioned a lot of stuff that happened in the silver age
But still not sure how you’re arguing that all events of CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS can count towards the heroes who participated in it, especially with Superman and Wonder Woman.
We are not arguing, I’m sharing my opinion with you. And the reason why I’m saying that those can be used for modern era Superman is because they count as retcons if they are mentioned in a modern story. Crisis has been mentioned a lot of times in modern stories as part of the history of the DC U
But on comicbook time, as far as I’m aware, DC has it so that the JLA had formed 10 years ago, so whatever year it is in the real world, it was 10 years prior. So now it would be 2000 that the JLA was formed, and Superman would’ve been around a little bit longer. But I do not know if they’ve changed that, as they’ve retconned again who the founding JLA members were. I don’t even know if JLA: YEAR ONE is still in continuity at all or not.
JLA year one is still continuity. And yes year passed different in DC. But after you finish 52 then you will see what I’m talking about.
Is the same as those events mentioned in Action Comics 650. The fact that they are mentioned in mainstream retcons the event, unless, they specify is an alternate reality.
Don’t recall Wally being struck by Anti-Monitor, but it’s been a while since I read COIE, and being sick certainly doesn’t help my recollection on the more obscure aspects. But I don’t think Wally was actually limited to the speed of sound, though that might’ve been the OFFICIAL stance and what he was often shown at. But I believe he was at least low-level supersonic. Didn’t Superman’s first race with Wally(and the first Post-CRISIS Superman/Flash race) have them clocked at four times the speed of sound? Also around this era, Superman was officially slower than Wally, but still managed to go over a thousand times the speed of sound on at least one occasion, and I think he out-raced lightning(over Mach 150) on another during this era.
I think I was referring to that scene you’re talking about(and it was Alpha Centurion). I’d have to find my ZERO HOUR TPB to get the quote, but considering Hal said something along the lines of the Guardians gave him the knowledge to do it(and didn’t he absorb the knowledge of the Guardians?) would imply that he didn’t remember the events himself.
I do not recall that scene with Donna Troy, so either you’re wrong about when it happened, or it was so unmemorable that I’m drawing a blank. I should be well past Week 2, but don’t even remember SEEING Donna Troy.
I’m still wondering where you get that COIE is canon for using for ALL heroes. Sure, Superman’s been getting Pre-CRISIS stuff retconned back into his continuity, but seems like only lately you could make the case for COIE being part as a whole. They certainly rebooted the character, starting from scratch so to speak after CRISIS when Byrne wrote THE MAN OF STEEL mini. Wonder Woman especially because Pre-CRISIS Wonder Woman’s body was degenerated into the clay that was used to make Post-CRISIS Wonder Woman if I’m remembering right. Pre-CRISIS Wonder Woman’s soul did though go to Olympus to be with the Olympians. I believe Post-CRISIS Wonder Woman’s origin is also VERY different, in regards to her getting her powers, over Pre-CRISIS. We know Diana, Post-CRISIS, was given life and power by the Olympian goddesses(plus Hermes). I don’t remember how Pre-CRISIS Diana was born, but didn’t her powers work like an Amazonian version of Iron Fist? In the sense of she had to develop her mind and body to use mental energy/lifeforce/whatever to amp her physical strength and stats? Of course I dunno if this stuck, as she also started gaining more powers as it went on and became powerful enough to go toe-to-toe with Pre-CRISIS Superman.
I ask if JLA: YEAR ONE is still canon due to the fact that they retconned the founding of the JLA again. Didn’t they change it back to Superman and Batman were founding JLAers(though Superman did help the founding members in the initial Apaxallation or however it’s spelled invasion, he not only didn’t join with the start of the JLA, but out-right refused membership when asked to join later-on), and didn’t they replace Wonder Woman BACK as a founding member over Black Canary? Also I remember an earlyish JLA storyline, it might have been Mark Waid filling in, but I think it was Grant Morrison. Where those photons were split in half and the scientist who did it ended-up gaining the power to alter odds into his favor, only it started changing the odds of things happening through the past, like America failed to win it’s independence, and the like. Martian Manhunter had taken a gamble when he started to fade-out that Atom would be the 7th JLA member to be there(as things revolved around 7, and Batman had stated that the JLA would stay at a steady 7 members). J’Onn figured that it’d be Atom, because he was the 7th member to join the JLA. Wouldn’t be the case anymore though if they went back to the founding members were Superman, Batman, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter, unlike JLA: YEAR ONE(where it was that minus Superman and Batman, and replace Wonder Woman with Black Canary)?
All that means though is that they were having some Pre-CRISIS elements of Superman’s continuity as canon, whether it be a retretcon or “revealing” it.
OK, so We agree that ONLY those events mentioned in Action Comics #650 are canon for Superman
and they will also count for the JLA or at least for the parts of the Justice League involved in those
incidents. After all MMH is saying that Superman saved the JLA. So those events will count also for:
GL, Hawkman, Flash, Aquaman, Adam Strange and whoever else was involved ONLY on those issues.
So I’m lost. Are you changing your stance from everything from COIEs counts for EVERYONE to just some stuff is canon and it depends on the characters, or what? That’s what I’ve said from the begining.
And you still haven’t told me where the Donna Troy scan comes from, if it’s FROM 52 or from a tie-in, because unless you’re mistaken on which issue it comes from, I’ve already read the issue and do NOT recall anything mentioning the 52 universes or COIE or anything in such detail.
So I’m lost. Are you changing your stance from everything from COIEs counts for EVERYONE to just some stuff is canon and it depends on the characters, or what? That’s what I’ve said from the begining.
No, I am not changing my stance, The events of COEI happened in the history of DC universe, therefore , IF refered in a post COEI issue they become canon for everyone involved on it. IF DONNA TROY talks about a crisis in which Alan Scott is shown fighting shadows, that means Alan Scott fought on the crisis, IF Alan Scott is still alive and is the same Alan Scott, it means COEI is canon for Alan Scott.
And you still haven’t told me where the Donna Troy scan comes from, if it’s FROM 52 or from a tie-in, because unless you’re mistaken on which issue it comes from, I’ve already read the issue and do NOT recall anything mentioning the 52 universes or COIE or anything in such detail.
Donna appears in a supplemental material AT THE END of every issue from week 3 to week 11 in the 52 series
OK, you’re sticking to your initial stance, but just because they’re recalling the events doesn’t mean it’s canon for them. As much as that doesn’t make sense, considering it was a universal crisis that effected continuity of several characters, how is it that it counts for everyone that participated JUST because it’s being remembered? At least with the Donna Troy example, seems she either just knows because others who were able to record the events have left it for her to know, or because she’s an anomaly that her memory was triggered because of being told of the events. But using Donna Troy really doesn’t work, like I said because she’s that anomaly. So far you’ve either shown people who WOULD have remembered it due to who/what they are(Guardians, Monitors, Harbinger), or that they were spared from being erased from reality(Kal-L, Superboy Prime, E3 Luthor).
And yeah, that makes a lot of sense if the Donna Troy stuff happened in back-up stories, as I’m reading through the TPBs. But I can’t click on your latest link, right now some websites aren’t working for me.
It’s still iffy AT BEST if it’s canon for every character. In a sense, COIE happened, but it didn’t happen.
And did Clark and Lex ever encounter each other in Smallville even Pre-CRISIS? I do remember something like that being shown on SUPER FRIENDS, but I never heard of it in the actual comics, and figured SMALLVILLE came-up with that part. So did it actually happen Pre-CRISIS or did they make it that due to SMALLVILLE’s popularity?
Yes they did meet each other in smallville in PC era, they used to be “best buds” until Superboy save him from a lab experiment in which Lex lost his hair, that is why lex hated so much Superman, because according to him it was his fault that he lost his hair
So, SUPERFRIENDS was pretty accurate on the Superboy kid Lex Luthor thing. In the Pre-CRISIS comic, did Superboy blow the smoke/vapors back into the lab or something like that? I think I saw that episode where some strange people from another planet visit a post-apocalyptic Earth with no life on it, visit the Hall Of Justice and look through the archives, and see how Lex Luthor became evil.
And the reason they forgot about the events is because the whole universe’s timeline changed, so COIE happened, but kinda didn’t at the same time. Meaning it’s questionable for who it counts for. I’m not even sure if Darkseid was uneffected or simply being a New God of his position had him gain/retain knowledge of it. I remember reading he used knowledge of Pre-CRISIS Parasite to indirectly create the Post-CRISIS Parasite.
So, basically you’re still failing to show how it’s canon for all characters, as several were completely redone and hadn’t actually participated.
And are you sure of the week being right for 52 for the Donna Troy scan? I’m past the week and don’t recall even mention of the multiverse. Or is that from a tie-in that wasn’t collected in the TPBs?
The event of COIE and the existency of the old multiverse are part of the DCU “history”
There was a Superman, batman, gl, jla involved
All those characters have been recalled on events prior, during and after the crisis.
I’m going to show every single scan in which someone from DCU mentions the crisis.
Power girl did not remember the crisis yet it does not mean that she did not participate on it.
There are several characters that remember the crisis
Hall Jordan as parallax
Barry Allen
Power Girl
The guardians
Psycho pirat (deceased)
Superman Kal-l (deceased)
Superboy Prime
Lex Luthor (earth 3 deceased)
Monitors
Donna Troy
Harbinger
All those character KNOW there was a crisis and they remember the events that happened
They remember they were involved in a crisis and they remember they fought against the Anti-Monitor.
WW and Supergirl or any character that was in there bbut did not “existed” are just a big continuity mess.
If I have enough time latter I’ll show you all the scans of Donna Troy talking about the history of the DC universe
Yes, I know COIE “happened” even though the events weren’t part of history. And I know lots and lots of characters participated. But you’re failing to show just because people remember, that that means it’s canon for ALL characters.
So, first you’re saying Power Girl did not remember, then she DOES remember? But her swapping between Earth-2 Kryptonian and her unique Atlantean(pre-cataclysm) physiology could be a factor in why she didn’t remember, despite having directly participated when an E2 Kryptonian.
Of course the Guardians and Monitors would remember, considering who they are. Harbinger would also fall into this. And of course Superboy Prime, Kal-L, and Lex Luthor of Earth-3 would remember, since they were sparred from being erased completely(though their histories were erased). But a lot of your examples seem to point that either the other characters don’t actually remember, simply gained knowledge of the events, or being educated on the events triggered their memories.
But you’re still failing to show why it’s canon for EVERYONE. Knowledge of it happening doesn’t mean much if they didn’t participate after the retcon.
If Martian Manhunter in Action comics #650 recalls an event that was before the crisis it means this is a Retcon event for Superman and the Justice league, right? After all He is saying that Superman came and save the JLA from Starbreaker.
All that means though is that they were having some Pre-CRISIS elements of Superman’s continuity as canon, whether it be a retretcon or “revealing” it. At best it means COIE counts for Superman, not all heroes who participated that got retconned. There’s always been elements of Pre-CRISIS continuity that were still in place after the revamping of the DCU.
And you also never answered the question on if that thing with Donna Troy and the robot was in a tie-in to 52, as I cannot recall seeing that and I’ve read past the week you mentioned.
I really love in that DC universe Trailer How Superman Owned Black Adam and took Black Adams punches as if they where NOTHING.Block a punch (SHOCKWAVE in background to boot).That is a lot of power behind that punch,yet Sups didn’t think any thing of it.Black Adam is Just as powerful as Captain marvel right,yet Capt. Marvel is fourth on this list. no way is this helping Capt Marvel As being just as or more powerful than Superman.NO DAMN WAY!
um Why are you using a prerendered trailer for an upcoming MMORPG BASED on the DC Universe as evidence of Superman’s superiority over Captain Marvel? It’s not like that trailer had an accurate portrayal of Superman, or a number of other characters. Hell, that whole using the Shazam bolt as a nuke is something I don’t think has happened in comics(not to my knowledge, but could have). Sure, it’s been used as a weapon on multiple occasions, but I don’t recall it ever causing wide-spread destruction like it hit with the impact of a nuclear explosion.
You want to argue Superman>>Captain Marvel, use SUPERMAN/BATMAN #4. Where Superman’s worn down from multiple fights against large teams(including having at least some of his solar energy drained by Nightshade), has been effected by Kryptonite to an unknown degree for a while(with it increasing as that giant meteor got closer), and getting right back up from a fresh Captain Marvel super-speed dive-bomb sucker-shot attacking Superman. Then Superman looking superior to the fresh Captain Marvel.
I will use any And all examples that I want to, I still made my point,my my my how defensive we all get when something like this comes to light. Everyone always say Canon Canon Canon,and Alot of times i see comics posted that are clearly not canon to argue a point. Capt Marvel in no way shape or form will ever be equal to or superior To Superman.
You can use any examples you want, but you’ll just get laughed at and dismissed as having no credibility whatsoever. At least others are using comics, whether they’re intentionally not using canon examples or not doesn’t change the fact that even non-canon comics are going to hold more weight than cartoons or a TRAILER for a VIDEO GAME.
And you’re saying I’m so defensive? Dude, you need to get your head checked. Not only have I argued for Superman’s superiority over Captain Marvel on here, but I fucking GAVE YOU AN EXAMPLE OF A WEAKENED SUPERMAN LOOKING BETTER THAN CAPTAIN MARVEL. Do you not pay attention?
Hey, just for fun, here’s a couple more examples of Superman showing superiority over Captain Marvel!
ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN #494: This didn’t actually “happen” but was a potential future Kismit showed Superman if he were to ever give-in to his Kryptonian heritage and become a dictator. So thus it being a potential future shown by Kismit in a comic that’s canon has it hold a fuck of a lot more weight than Superman beating-down Black Adam in a video game trailer. Anyways, both fights pretty much happen off-panel, but Superman had just defeated a team of Batman, Booster Gold, Supergirl(the Matrix-era Supergirl), the Hal Jordan Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, and he has Flash(I think Wally) in his hand by the throat. Captain Marvel comes in and Superman says to join him, Captain Marvel says he’s going to stop Superman or die trying. So Superman’s likely not in top shape due to having just defeated a pretty impressive team(albeit off-panel) and Captain Marvel’s fresh for the fight. The next panel we show states Superman has become ruler of Earth.
ACTION COMICS #831: Superman fights Black Adam(who Superman specifically states hits harder than Captain Marvel) at worst to a draw. One could argue though that Superman’s performance convinced Black Adam to give-up, as he put his back to Superman figuring Superman’s sense of honor wouldn’t let him get punched in the back of the head unanswered.
So much for me being defensive of Captain Marvel being inferior to Superman!! Learn to debate better, and pay attention more too, gregory.
sure as if i care what you think. I will still be here to say how rediculous you all are to think that there is any superhero more powerful than Superman.
LMAO You’re just an idiot troll who has no clue whatsoever what he’s talking about. You did not get the best of me. Come back when your balls drop, maybe you’ll have SOME CLUE of what you’re speaking of.
I remember a while back, I think it was on the Superman VS Thor article, that someone was trying to argue that Thor>Superman because Batman’s beaten Superman, but there’s no way Batman could beat Thor. Of course this is a stupid argument as it’s ignoring that A: Batman has not even beaten Superman from any in-continuity example I’ve seen(several people who try to argue here that Batman’s beaten Superman only show single pages or even single panels of fights so thus are invalid) and B: That doesn’t work because Batman knows Superman well, has resources Thor doesn’t, and fights in ways Thor doesn’t. Let’s use MMA as an example. Say Fighter A and C are both strikers, Fighter B is a grappler. Fighter A beat the shit out of Fighter B, and Fighter B owned Fighter C. Does this prove that Fighter A beats Fighter C? No. Fighter C can be a far better striker than Fighter A from both a technical striking and knock-out power point, but has no ground game whatsoever and is easily taken down by Fighter B. So Fighter C can’t defend himself when he’s on the ground. Fighter A is a good striker, but not in Fighter C’s class, but has great take-down defense and has a good enough ground game to not be dominated if Fighter B takes him to the ground. So Fighter B loses to Fighter A because he can’t take him down, beats Fighter C because he can, but Fighter A can’t hang with Fighter C in stand-up and gets owned. But this is pretending people are right that Batman actually has beaten Superman.
But anyways, Batman allegedly beating Superman via weakness exploitation(and a bunch of other stuff, like powered-armor in THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, though that wasn’t even a win) sure makes Superman look better than Thor by comparison when Thor doesn’t even have a weakness for Captain America to exploit, and yet Captain America beat-down Thor.
Now of course this is a bad showing that I don’t even consider for Thor. Much like I don’t consider Firelord’s loss to Spider-Man when Firelord VS X shows-up. But the point is to show the ridiculousness of the argument that Thor>Superman because Superman allegedly lost to Batman, and there’s no way Batman could beat Thor.
Now to give full-disclosure, there were extenuating circumstances against Thor. He had an arm missing(and I think eye too), been worn down by a fight with Hulk and Thing and his child was taken hostage, so I think he didn’t fight back against Cap. But those factors don’t really matter considering the fact that Captain America should not be able to hurt him with his barehands without some power-up like gains the Unipower. And yet, Captain America beat Thor down in less than a page and a half, a whole four panels of actual attacks. And this was after he just had a showing where he KILLED Hulk AND Thing while severely handicapped.
By comparison, the only time I’ve seen Superman have that embarrassing of a showing was when Lex Luthor’s bodyguards beat him up. But he had the excuse of that Kryptonite tumor having gotten so bad that he barely had the strength to walk and was actually EMITTING Kryptonite radiation. And this was followed by him being largely intact after a fall from the top of a skyscraper. So that’s a reverse of the Thor scans. He has an embarrassing showing(with extenuating circumstances that hurt him far more than Thor) THEN has an impressive feat(durability). Whereas Thor had an impressive feat then gets embarrassed.
And people completely ignored the scenario I put up when asked how Batman could possibly beat Thor. We’ve seen Thor be effected by gas before, and be hurt by pressure point attacks(though that was Mantis, who had developed Martial Arts skills beyond the level of Batman or Captain America, where she does things that aren’t humanly possible even for comicbook characters). Batman has a device that he threatened to blow a hole through Captain Atom’s “skin” with. Though we didn’t see it actually happen, we’d have to assume it’s pretty powerful if Batman’s threatening to do that.
So I’d see Batman gassing Thor then using that device to hit his pressure points, then eventually in the head for a KO, as a lot more plausible than an unenhanced Captain America simply beating down Thor(even a worn-down Thor not defending himself).
That’s not exactly a beat down, he surprised him with a hit to the face with his shield, and this is after Thor KILLED Hulk and mot everyone else in the Marvel U.
The point is that Captain America shouldn’t be able to hurt Thor like that, even with a sneak-attack. The only times I’ve seen Superman smacked around like that by someone of that level had him weakened to a great extent. Like I said, when Luthor’s bodyguards beat-up Superman, he had that Kryptonite tumor in him that got to the level that Superman was actually EMITTING Kryptonite radiation. THEN he had a good showing, being mostly ok falling from the upper levels of a skyscraper.
Far as I know, the whole thing was set in a potential future, that Thor later stopped from happening by going to his younger self and informing current-Thor to stop the events that had everything happen from, well, ever happening.
Most of the fight was off-panel, I’d have to find it.
And here I actually considered you one of the more intelligent ones.As for my balls I am sure that is something you are quite use to seeing lots of . This time choke on them.Still there is no greater more powwerful superhero that than SUPERMAN.
And I care about your former consideration of me being one of the more intelligent ones here why? You can’t even distinguish canon from non-canon and use not caring and can use whatever you want as a shield from criticism. You’re also dense enough that you’re using a prerendered TRAILER OF A VIDEO GAME as evidence of Superman being superior to Captain Marvel. Despite the fact that it wasn’t against Captain Marvel, and there were serious inconsistencies, including for Superman himself. You know, Superman was sun-bathing for a while in that trailer, to have him at a higher level than normal, right? So thus how can you say Superman is superior to Captain Marvel because an amped Superman beat Black Adam? Or the fact that Kryptonite effected Superman SO BADLY when we’ve seen even unamped him be effected much less so?
Oh good excuse sun bathed Superman wow. So you are putting credibility to this trailer after all hmmm. Superman OWNed Black Adam in any case.As for you being able to respond well I think i get the message. LOUD and clear. I am hurt. truly hurt.NO really I am.
my mom loves her sessions. oh she wanted me to tell you that you forgot your undies at her place. I told her to use them to cover the truck beside the trailer. Honey I laugh AT myself the more the merrier.
good night love.I am just silly an bored thats all .No i really am not up to speed on All the FACTS more than likely never will be. That is what you guys are here for. Has helped some. I am just a superman nutcase. and there nothing out there that can convince me that he is not the most powerful thats all.Delta i know you could care less about what I have tosay.So i won’t say much more After this, unless I ask a question.If you choose not to answer thats your choice.I have concidered you,shadowhunter, and Alberto ,and a few others the most credible ones on here thats why i keep coming back.So I will shut up,and stop being STUPID.(that will be hard for me). Maybe i will learn something from you guys.Goodnight.
OK, I can post the first part of my response to gregory, but I can’t post the owning I wrote-up for him regarding me seeing a lot of balls. Fuck, what’s up with that?
And yeah, this is really more of a joke than anything. But what won’t Marvel allow Reed to get away with when he has Prep-Time?
The WEAKEST two members who contributed to that energy blast are Elders Of The Universe. And it includes the fucking Living Tribunal!! Then you’ve got a Cosmic Cube given sentience(Shaper Of Worlds), Stranger, Lord Chaos and Master Order and their agent In-Betweener. And this blast was created with the intent to completely eradicate Galactus. And Reed’s energy cannon stopped it.
But then again Doctor Doom had taken the powers of Galactus and The Beyonder during SECRET WARS so I guess this isn’t something we shouldn’t expect Reed to be incapable of doing, by that “logic.”
Wait, just realized those scans were from an MC2 comic, which are kinda WHAT IF?s. Still though, surprising they’d let Reed do that as I think it’s even more ridiculous than Wolverine slashing-open Silver Surfer in that AGE OF APOCALYPSE timeline WHAT IF? and Wolverine cutting off Thanos’ arm during the INFINITY GAUNTLET WHAT IF? thing.
Still waiting for responses from Reporter on the whole Mikaboshi thing as well as his claim that Zeus=Odin, Fury on the whole Doctor Manhattan thing, ShadowHunter on his claim that Wonder Woman>Green Lantern, and Tim on the…..train our debate left at.
If you guys respond in the original sections, would appreciate you noting a reply here that you’ve responded, as I only occasionally check the previous page now.
Hey if hollywood dicided to do a shazam/captain marvel movie who who would you pick to play CaptM. better yet, who could play the part of Black Adam.At the moment I got nothing.
Oddly I like that choice alot if only he was a hair younger he would work.I have seen some pic of the Dwayne Johnson The ROCK as Black Adam.I am not sure I buy it though.thanks for responding in any case.By the way you rock when it come to facts.
There are a lot of things I go off memory, but I actually keep lists of feats for various character, with categories(like Strength, Durability, Speed, ect.). I have a basic list of categories and add more as needed depending on the character(Superman actually has so many feats I included sub-categories). I could email you them I guess, if that’s what you mean.
And I’m not entirely sure of what you mean on the second question. While it may have happened, I’m not aware of any instance where a scientist gave a thorough analysis/description of Superman’s powers and how they work. There’s been several times where specific powers have had some mention by Superman or others, but I don’t know of any examples that you seem to be referring to. Maybe you’re referring to Hamilton testing Superman after his return from death, when Eradicator had repowered Superman with what Hamilton referred to as “Kryptonite X?” I hadn’t read the issue, but know Hamilton did some study, though if there were any limits stated I dunno.
It’s funny how you list Thor as the powerful. He fought Hulk numerous times and always had his ass handed to him. He could never defeat him. What gives??
Are you referring to events in the Pre-CRISIS JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA comics, or modern JLA comics with Pre-CRISIS events mentioned? It seems to be the JLoA stuff instead of Grant Morrison’s JLA, as I don’t recall anything regarding mentioning Pre-CRISIS events in several of those issues you mentioned.
So what are, at least some, of the events, and where have they been referenced?
Maybe this will get some discussion going, but I doubt it since the 4 most frequent posters(myself included) all seem to agree on this, to varying degrees.
Outside of denial and Superman hate, I can’t see why anybody argues that Thor is even close to Superman in strength, let alone superior like some idiots claim. At the least, Superman has a moderate edge in strength against Thor, not just slight or it be even(or too close to even to tell).
Some of Thor’s best strength feats? Resisting the gravity of a neutron star. Superman has resisted the gravity of a “double black hole.”
Superman’s matched strength with Hulk in direct grappling, stalemating for a time twice? Superman’s matched strength with Doomsday, who is far superior to Hulk.
Thor beat Hulk and Thing to death, mostly off-panel? A much weaker Superman beat Doomsday to death. And it’s arguable that when he finally went all-out, he did it in a pretty short period of time, when extremely injured, as multiple times he commented he didn’t seem to be doing much to Doomsday, with a few exceptions.
Thor lifted the Midgard Serpent? A much weaker Superman threw a spaceship 4 times the size of an aircraft carrier(and an aircraft carrier weighs nearly 100,000 tons) into ORBIT.
Thor with the whole “world engine” thing? A weaker Superman powered the gears of Mageddon, which dwarfed the Earth/Moon system.
Then we’ve got numerous other examples for Superman. Slowing down the “weight of eternity” with Wonder Woman. Containing a miniature black hole in his hands, keeping it from expanding. On at least two occasions, the collateral damage of his fights has destroyed planets/planetoids(including one instance under a red sun). His fight with Kal-L had “shattered the boundaries of space and time.” Him lifting infinite weight with help from an alternate Captain Marvel, having Marvel help due to uncertainty, then the technically weaker Ultraman(alternate universe version of Superman) is able to lift it on his own. Punching Wonder Woman so hard she went flying at perhaps hundreds of times the speed of light.
Sure, people argue that Superman has a larger number of feats due to more appearances, but that’s really just an excuse for their inability to counter Superman’s strength feats, isn’t it? It’s not just about quantity, it’s about the quality of the feats. The fact that there’s a larger number of impressive strength feats just makes the argument harder for the Thor side, but they can’t even counter the fact that Superman’s feats are simply more impressive, not just numerous. Sure, they say that they can’t see Superman doing something strength-wise that Thor can’t, but that’s just wishful thinking. It’s almost as bad as people arguing Doctor Manhattan is the most powerful hero.
And then there’s also Superman’s portrayals of comparative strength. For example, even the Byrne-era Superman had been able to be relatively evenly matched against those considered to be peers or superiors even with extenuating circumstances working AGAINST Superman. Like Superman’s early fight with Eradicator, Superman was able to fight on a relatively even level with Eradicator hand-to-hand, despite the fact that Eradicator had turned the sun red and Superman had even entered the outer layers of the sun(his first time going further than skirting the surface). Superman was able to BEAT Lar-Gand, who at the time was being implied to be superior to Superman(since it was being implied that Daxamites were more powerful than Kryptonians), despite the fact that the Eclipso-possessed Lar had knocked the air completely out of Superman’s lungs, they were on the Moon, and this was a point where Superman needed to breath to the level that space-travel beyond the Moon without an air supply was a problem. Then the time when Superman fought Lobo fairly evenly, got tackled by Lar(making it two-on-one), and while they were distracted smacked their heads together One-Shotting the two of them.
Then there’s other examples. Comparing to when Namor and Hulk jumped Thor and restrained him, they were straining to, using both arms each to hold one of Thor’s, but they were succeeding when it came to pure strength. A couple of examples of Superman VS other Kryptonians on relative strength. Superman was being held by Ursa and Non(a genetic freak amongst Kryptonians) in a similar manner and broke their grip, throwing them off. Or the time that five Kryptonian Soldiers(though no-names, they’d still at least break into the Class 100 rank), one having Superman in a headlock and the other four having one of Superman’s limbs, in a manner much like Hulk/Namor had Thor(meaning using both arms for one limb and having the leverage advantage) and Superman breaks their holds and throws them off him. Then we’ve got other examples, like from the KING OF THE WORLD storyline where the combined efforts of Steel, Supergirl, Big Barda, Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman were only able to temporarily restrain a weaker than current Superman. Or an issue of SUPERMAN/BATMAN where Hawkgirl, Ultra, Blue Beetle II(in the alien power armor), Kilowog(a GL with superhuman strength), Martian Manhunter, Power Girl and a bunch of others I either didn’t recognize, or wasn’t able to get a good enough look at to identify, barely manage to even SLOW DOWN Superman? The most impressive feat for Thor against a team, in terms of relative strength, I know of out-side of the Namor/Hulk restraint was in SECRET WARS where Doctor Octopus and the Wrecking Crew were kinda able to restrain Thor, but that team wasn’t that impressive, especially with the Wrecking Crew showing to be fairly weak compared to now. And though this was also an example of skill/tactics on Superman’s part, he manhandled Ultraman then double One-Shotted him and Superwoman. I could continue, but I think I made my point.
Then there’s how Thor and Superman are portrayed against their biggest peers in strength, Hercules and Captain Marvel respectively. Though due to superior strength feats I give Thor the strength advantage, when the two have fought or competed in tests of strength, I have not seen one time where Thor has looked superior, and in fact have seen an example of Hercules looking better(due to skill, I guess being the better grappler). But with Superman and Captain Marvel, Captain Marvel has never looked superior to Superman that I’ve seen without using the Zeus-amping, going beyond his normal strength. Superman beat the shit out of Captain Marvel the first time they fought with Superman possessed by Eclipso(and while it’s been argued Eclipso-possession gives people powers, it’s seemed to do little if anything for those who already have super powers). Superman was showing the advantage at points their second fight where Superman was Eclipso-possessed with Captain Marvel only getting an advantage with Zeus-amping or using several Shazam bolts to weaken Superman(and still only being even with Superman after that). The two arm-wrestling matches I know of had Superman win the first(due to CM3 and Mary Marvel power-sharing at a critical moment; they were stalemated before hand) and drawing for hours before Superman noticed some crime or something and they stopped. The only win I know of for Captain Marvel against Superman was a complete and utter sucker-punch(Superman had his back turned and didn’t even know Marvel was going to attack) WITH the Zeus-amping(so increased strength PLUS mystical energy). Superman also had beaten the shit out of Captain Marvel though with a sucker-punch in an issue of JSA(which one could argue Captain Marvel was power-sharing) when Ultra-Humanite had taken over the world and had Superman and others mind-controlled. Then there’s the fight in SUPERMAN/BATMAN #4 which at worst for Superman can be called a draw. But Superman STILL looked superior to Captain Marvel despite being worn-down from multiple fights against entire teams(including an instance of an unknown amount of solar energy being drained by Nightshade), being effected to an unknown degree by Kryptonite, AND Captain Marvel starting the fight with a super-speed dive-bomb sneak-attack. And yeah, you could argue it a draw as Superman and Batman switched opponents to pull-off a plan where they play possum, but Superman still looked superior and had all those factors against him. Then off-panel Superman took-down Captain Marvel(with dialoguing heavily implying a sneak-attack). And this is if we don’t count that potential future(though the fight happened off-panel) or KINGDOM COME(but that’s an alternate Earth now) wins. I know the two have had other fights, but I haven’t seen them, but out of everything I’ve seen, Superman looks better against his established rival(Captain Marvel) than Thor does against his(Hercules). Also the fact that Captain Marvel’s powers are mystically based takes away much of the Thor having magick argument, especially when it comes to hand-to-hand combat, as unless Captain Marvel is Zeus-amping(which increases his strength as well as surrounds his fists with mystical energy), he has never shown to hurt Superman with his punches anymore than someone of equal strength, or even greater strength, who isn’t mystically powered. Same with Wonder Woman and Black Adam.
I’ll go on more points at a later time, but hopefully this’ll get a bit of discussion. Or just get a bunch of people to call me an idiot Superman fanboy and make unsubstantiated claims like how Thor’s beaten Gladiator who’s a more powerful version of Superman in the wet dreams of Marvel fanboys and not give any other reasoning. Or does nothing at all beside have Alberto make a comment.
Thor gets bombed with Graviton bombs, then the graviton bomb creates an effect AKIN (similar, not equal) to that of a neutron star, that is WHY you see the debris collapsing into Thor’s body.
The effect is AKIN to a neutron star, not exactly a neutron star.
Also the feat in which Thor is holding his mallet with one hand vs Hulk and Namor, it seems it was due to the fact that The Mallet had a spell that prevents MORTAL BEINGS to take the mallet away from Thor’s hands.
We also pointed this out before to Zero and We challenged the Thor camp to show that Thor was ALMOST as strong or as durable as Superman.
There is nothing that shows that Thor is ALMOST as strong or as durable as Superman. Superman also has the advantage on other departments, but he is not as versatile as Thor, this and the fact that Thor is a magical being compensate somewhat for the disadvantages Thor may have vs Superman, or Superman may have vs Thor.
But I believe most times Superman will win.
Oh and the Infinite Book it seem it had all of existency inside, as described by the “second” Mandrakk in Superman beyond vol. 2
Interesting, didn’t know the full details on the neutron star thing. Got scans for it?
And I dunno if Mjolnir being in Thor’s hand had anything to do with him being restrained like he was. I think it was a loop-hole of Mjolnir being moved by someone not worth if Thor’s already holding it and someone overpowers Thor’s arm with Mjolnir(whether via leverage-based technique or out-right out-muscle him).
And yeah, the evidence shows Superman having a minimum of a moderate strength advantage, based on both feats and comparative strength showings. Like I said, Superman’s shown to be superior to Captain Marvel more than once, including when weakened by Kryptonite plus other factors. I don’t know of anytime that Thor has looked superior to Hercules. I could be wrong, as I haven’t seen every single one of their fights/competitions, but like I said before, Superman has won or looked superior a larger number of times, including while being effected by Kryptonite(albeit to an unknown degree) as well as other factors.
Though on the Thor having magick thing, Captain Marvel is a perfect example. Where has he shown to hurt Superman without Zeus-amping any more than General Zod or Non or others have? The only time where I’ve seen magick as a serious threat to a higher degree than an equivalent non-mystical attack is with mystical blades, and this very well can be because the sharp objects have the enchantment TO be sharp. It’s really funny how people use Superman getting cut by mystical blades as “proof” that Thor owns him, yet ignore how punches from Etrigan, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, Black Adam and others have hurt him little more, IF more at all, than equivalently strong punches from the non-mystical.
Mystical energy attacks might hurt him a bit more than equivalent non-mystical, but little more at best. I’ve pointed out before, when Superman’s durability was to the point that he could be badly effected by nuclear explosions, during that period there were two points where he took mystical energy blasts or explosions equivalent to nukes and was effected pretty much the same as when he was hit by actual nuclear explosions. And he’s taken mystical energy blasts from so many opponents(Blaze, Etrigan, Disciple, Shazam, and many more) that he certainly can endure Thor’s energy blasts.
You make a lot of excuses why Superman loses to Captain Marvel shouldn’t count; instead of “real” reason which is Captain Marvel very close to being Superman equal. I agree Superman has more powers but most of Superman’s extra abilities don’t benefit him in fight against Captain Marvel. This was neatly told in All-Star Squadron issues 36-37; where Captain Marvel beat Superman with (no sneak attack involved).
Base solely on feats Superman appear to have clear strength advantage over Thor or does he? I know you don’t like to give Thor too much credit when it comes to comparing him to Superman but Thor did lift Odinsword which has incalculable weight & lifting of world serpent is more then feat show don’t have upper strength level. I can’t see why anybody would go on record and said Superman is stronger then Thor because neither of them have been shown to have upper strength limit. I have never seen where anyone state Thor has a upper strength limit.
Actually there Four Hero don’t have upper strenght limits Superman,Thor, Captain Marvel & Hulk.
No bitch, you are the idiot. Plane and simple you goddamn retard. Look, first if you’re going to call me an idiot, you better sure as fuck make sure your damn spelling and grammar is correct. Bitch all you want that it’s the Internet, it’s just a piss-poor excuse you use to try to cover up the fact that you’re retarded. I would have to say Alberto’s grasp of the English language is superior to your’s.
And I really really wish I could have you on the ground and just stomp your groin over and over and over and over again. Not because you piss me off or anything, someone stupid as you is rather amusing. But that’s the problem. You’re a FUCKING IDIOT. You should not be allowed to reproduce, and I sincerely wish I could make sure of that.
I make a lot of excuses as to why Superman’s lost to Captain Marvel? I’ve seen ONE time where Captain Marvel has won, and it was with a Zeus-amped sucker-punch. How the fuck am I making excuses? Superman’s either won or drawn every other time. And hey guess what? Here’s another example of your innate stupidity. The ALL-STAR SQUADRON issues you are referring to are Pre-CRISIS, so thus do not count!! And I’d have to see them anyways. Considering the bullshit you claimed regarding that some comic writer told you there was an agreement that Superman would never lose to a Marvel character, and you could not even name him, just claimed it was at a convention, makes it HIGHLY SUSPECT AT BEST. But anybody with an ounce of sense knows you’re lying about it.
When it comes down to it, Captain Marvel does not have the feats to match Superman. One can argue that Captain Marvel has fewer appearances and rarely has lifting feats, but that does not change the fact that on multiple occasions, Superman has simply looked superior when the two have fought. Including the time Superman was worn down from fighting two entire teams, had some of his solar energy leeched by Nightshade, and was being effected by Kryptonite the entire time. I wasn’t making excuses for Superman there, which you seem to have gotten the impression due to the me keep-on making excuses for Superman(when he’s only lost ONCE Post-CRISIS). But if your reading comprehension where better than second-grade level then you MIGHT have noticed I said that at worst for Superman, the fight was a draw. With Superman looking superior over Captain Marvel. Despite all those. But if Captain Marvel is so close to equal to Superman, then why did Captain Marvel specifically have to use BOTH the Strength Of Hercules AND Atlas, something he had to actively do, to be able to match Superman in arm-wrestling? And Superman’s had explicit power-ups SINCE this arm wrestling match. Captain Marvel can use Zeus-amping to match, or even exceed, Superman’s strength, durability or speed, but he suffers in other areas if he does this.
Oh and Superman’s extra abilities don’t benefit him against Captain Marvel? Well I’ve only seen Superman use Heat Vision against Captain Marvel, but it had hurt Billy quite a bit, causing him to yell in pain. And this was the fight where Superman was effected by Kryptonite. And Superman wasn’t even going all-out. Though I don’t know of any times Superman’s used freeze breath on CM, I do know he’s used it on Wonder Woman, Bizarro and Darkseid and temporarily restrained them with it, so yeah it’d be useful against Captain Marvel. Not decisive, but useful. And though it’s rarely used, Torquasm-Vo would certainly be useful against Captain Marvel with the right application, being a serious Plot-Device and all.
First-off it’s “based” not “base” in this context. Second, yes, Superman is stronger than Thor based off feats. Bitch all your retard ass wants about me being bias and waah waah waah you little crybaby bitch, I’m right and you can’t counter it. First off, so what that Thor lifted the Odinsword? That doesn’t really prove anything, just because it’s “incalculable.” And Thor lifted the World Serpent? So what? It was big enough to wrap it’s self around the Earth, not the size of the Earth. Plenty of people said it wouldn’t even be as big as a third of the Moon, which Superman moved through Earth’s gravity, at NEAR-LIGHTSPEED. When weaker than he is currently. So much for that.
Again, you’re just going off the whole wishful thinking that Thor is even close to Superman in strength. Admit it, Thor has not been portrayed to be as strong as Superman, in terms of straight-up strength feats OR relative to others. I love how you avoided that part.
I don’t even know why you’re bothering to argue with me. Oh wait, I do. You only use the whole smoke-screen of I’m too immature when you have no counter, but when you pretend to have some balls and think you can beat me in a debate, you argue me. Then fall back on the you’re too mature for me(complete BULLSHIT you dumbass bitch) or pitch a hissy fit that you don’t have time.
But really, if you don’t have time to research these characters, which you’ve used as a crutch before, why the FUCK do you even bother to post on here beyond asking questions? You obviously have more free time than you’d care to admit. And if you’re so mature but want to say I’m wrong, why not just ignore the insults I give you and focus on the points I make? If you were capable of countering my points, you’d actually counter them instead of pitching a hissy fit like the bitch on the rag you are about you have a life or are too mature.
I DARE you to actually make a legit argument, and acknowledge ALL my points in the comment I made previously and here. Not just what you THINK you can deal with. You’re like One-Eyed Willie was except with worse spelling/grammar and attempts to act older and more mature(but it’s just that, an act). But you probably won’t, and what response you do make will be reaching further than Reed Richards to save face, you pathetic, somehow less than worthless piece of shit idiot. Good day dumbfuck.
Before this fight there was another in which a similar character like shazam fought against superman. The character looked almost identical to captain marvel, but they did not use the same outfit, because captain marvel had been only recently purchased by dc. the first fight was just to show the intention of introduce the character to the mainstream DC.
LMAO So wait, Darryl was even MORE off, not only was it Pre-CRISIS but against Kal-L, not Kal-El? I guess I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt though on not knowing before-hand, unlike he gave me about the Silver Surfer being KOed by a hammer thing being out of continuity. Assuming he was even correct/telling the truth.
I give him the benefit of the doubt not knowing, because I can’t honestly see that ignorant retard being able to differentiate between Kal-El and Kal-L, or tell when art work looks like it’s from the Pre-CRISIS era.
By the way Alberto, could you post scans of the whole fight?
I was referring to the entire fight between Earth-1 Superman and Captain Marvel that you had linked the end to, but if you could provide scans of more fights I wouldn’t complain in the slightest.
Also if you mean telling the difference between Kal-El and Kal-L, not that hard unless you’re just glancing. Kal-L’s face is normally noticeably older, and then there’s always those gray streaks in his hair. His “S” is also different, them keeping the one from when Superman first appeared.
This particular issue was when earth 2 Superman was younger.
He does not look that old, actually He looks pretty much like Kal-El.
The only way you can tell the difference is because it says earth’s 2 mightiest heroes vs captiain Marvel
Also you can see the slight difference in the Superman symbol and I believe the cape is also shorter.
When Zero approves the scans you will see what I’m talking about
Ah ok, so you’d have to look at the “S” on the chest to see which Superman it was? Makes sense.
But wouldn’t it have been quicker to post the scans individually in a separate comment with a reply to each, or better yet just emailed me the links, as opposed to waiting for Zeromage to approve the comment?
Second: I’ve said this before. I still agree that Hulk could potentially become stronger than Superman, but in regards to demonstrative strength feats, Superman has the superior feats of strength. As fell as the superior strength feats over Thor.
Well people always talk bad when Superman gets “defeated” by Batman with kryptonite. It is a bad showing for Superman, but really not that bad if you take into account that Batman is using Kryptonite to accomplish the feat.
I mean it makes sense Superman is getting poisoned and He is somehow becoming vulnerable.
A bad showing will be NOT having weaknesses (at leas not having EXPRESSED weaknesses) like Superman and yet get your ass handed to you by a street level character, regardless of how strong you are.
I will love to see the black panther trying to pull this one out on Superman.
Anyhow, HERE IS THE PERFECT EXAMPLE of the SO called HAND TO HAND COMBAT SPEED THE SILVER SURFER REALLY HAS.
I have said this a thousand times SS cannot hit 2000 times in a second, He can’t, He is like a jet pilot.
So Black Panther used leverage to keep Silver Surfer restrained, even when stating Surfer had a vast strength advantage. That’s just embarrassing, considering even without amping, Surfer should at least be classic Rogue-level in strength.
Oh, Delta, you remember that scan of SS saying that He had nanosecond reaction time?
Well it comes from Marvel comics presents and what is happening is because there is a parasite in SS’s body that is making him having allucinations and somehow controling his body and toughts. So that nanosecond reaction time seems pretty much like an allucination.
SS has microsecond reaction time, stated on panel.
Hey guys, the new list is nearly ready to move to the new site. One question for the experts:
Should Sentry still be on the list? If not, who should I replace him with. I am also considering removing Dr. Strange and the GL. My top 6 is now set in stone, but I’m looking for a bottom 4.
Then you must add Captain Atom. He has enought strenght to fight against Superman (which means he can beat Thor), his Energy Manipulation is above Silver Surfer and he can absorb unlimited amount of energy. Of course, Monarch was a villain but Captain Atom only had to absorb the power of 52 Captain Atoms to do that and he was able to be that powerful and he can do that anytime. One version of him was able to create a Universe in his Quantum Field and create his own version of the Spectre, Superman, etc. So yes, he deserves to be in the list too.
Zero : I would remove Black Bolt or Green Lantern for atleast Doctor Strange or Doctor Fate. They accomplished multiple things. I prefer Doctor Fate since his Classic version was just too powerful. The Helmet of Nabu is pretty much Nabu itself. I’ve heard that when Doctor Fate is in danger, Nabu can take control over him and fight whoever fights Fate. Nabu only needs a ”body” which Fate can provide. Both Black Bolt and Green Lantern wouldn’t affect these magicians too much. For the others, their speed and other powers are simply too much for them even if Doctor Fate could handle alot of the Superheroes in this list by himself. At full power, he can take them out. For Captain Atom, I totally agree.
Oh, forgot. Martian Manhunter should be after Captain Marvel. The main reason why people thought he wasn’t enought powerful for the Top 5 is because is weakness is fire but it was removed when he became Fernus and now, his weakness is the fire of love.
Zero I like your list.
I’m ok with Dr. Strange not being on list as long as his not Sorcerer Supreme because when he was that is more powerful then Black Bolt. Classic Dr. Strange has defeat many foe that have great speed and where more powerful then Black Bolt.
ShadowHunter only orginal Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson) was more powerful then Classic Dr. Strange. That verison probably too powerful to be on this list.
Current Dr. Fate and Current Dr. Strange aren’t equal. I’ve already told you. Nabu gets to choose when he’ll take control over Dr. Fate and he will when he feel that his human host is in danger. Who’s more powerful? Nabu or Dr. Strange?
Don’t answer Strange…lol!
For Classic Fate, of course he is too powerful for the list..!
Why am I not surprised in the least that you ignored my out-right obliteration of you, dumbass? C’mon Darryl, just admit it. You don’t know what the FUCK you’re talking about and just want to say I’m wrong. Pussy-ass bitch.
And don’t pull the maturity or have a life smoke-and-mirrors attempt. It’s lame at this point.
Delta, Alberto, Shadowhunter, I’ve been reading your comments for almost 3 months, you guys have great knowledge of comics (especially delta) and you’ve proven to many Marvel fanboys how wrong they were and still are thinking that Superman can be beaten down that easily.
and lolzz not to mention that they’ve been schooled so many times by you guys.
But I wanted to ask a question that in this topic and Thor vs Superman topic, zeromage has given thor the advantage (both by arguments and positions…..as you can see on the list) to his favorite hero and number one, after so much arguments, scans and proof etc, you guys have proven that Superman is Number One.
So why is Thor No one on the list? doesnt zeromage watches posts?
and btw Thankyou Delta, Alberto, Shaowhunter for your great posts!
Actually, I do not know if Zero watches ALL the post here. I know he has seen some of the evidence and he has changed his mind on some ocasions thanks to Delta.
I do believe He nows can concede that current Superman can defeat Thor, but on his criteria a Superman that can defeat Thor is probably too powerful for the list. Plus He is using a version of Superman that was depicted probably arround 20 years ago by John Byrne or maybe Dan Jurgens.
Only those two versions of Superman could be considered less powerful than CURRENT Thor.
Also another little secret (He is a Hammer Head, no offense Zero)
Shadow do you have a scan?
Sure but it’s the Eradicator who says that.
@shadow
Not that I don’t believe you, just for refference
”Listen to me! I have seen the Maker – Shiva! Yahweh! Azathoth! Ometecutu! The creator and the destroyer!”:
http://s673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/?action=view¤t=imperiexpower10.jpg
Yahweh = The Presence.
Superman later confirms that the Eradicator was referring to Imperiex:
http://s673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/?action=view¤t=imperiexpower3.jpg
“I am fully aware of the danger I present to earth – and that danger is nothing compared to the lightest touch of the little finger of the annihilation God I have seen”
“Defend earth?! You think I speak of defending earth against the hand of God?!”:
http://s673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/galanphotos/?action=view¤t=imperiexpower11.jpg
Shadow
That is the erradicator telling Superman about Imperex Prime
When Erradicator is saying:
”Listen to me! I have seen the Maker – Shiva! Yahweh! Azathoth! Ometecutu! The creator and the destroyer!”
He is reffering to IP, He is just building up the drama in the comic so the story gets more interesting, Not that IP is the Presence
I never said he was. I said IP saw the Presence and he pretty much work for him.
Or that IP meet The Presence
Yeah well, that’s an incredible feat.
Here are a few Superman PRE-CRISIS feats that can be used for modern Superman because the incidents have been mentioned in canon modern history
Enjoy
Superman can split a diamond planet in two
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/Pre-crisis%20retcon/SPLITADIAMONDPLANETINTWO.jpg
He didn’t actually split a planet in half, just said it, just like everyman talks out of there cock i am sure he was exaggerating. But he might not have been, either way i don’t think you can use that as a very good example.
OK, Then let me rephrase that
He can deliver a blow that WOULD cut a diamond planet in half.
The gun was really resistent, that is why Superman was not able to break it
Sure, he didn’t actually split a diamond planet in half in that scan. But Pre-CRISIS Superman had sneezed-out a Solar System, from a “Long Dead UNIVERSE” that he traveled to in seconds, and as Superboy had towed a galaxy. So do you doubt that Superman, in Pre-CRISIS days, could split a diamond planet in half with a punch? Hell, for all we know he DID split one in half, and the scan has him referring to it.
Superman also HULKS UP
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/Pre-crisis%20retcon/THEMADDERIGETTHESTRONGERIBECOME.jpg
You have seen Superman turning coal into diamond but have you ever seen Superman BREAKING DOWN MOLECULES AT SUPER SPEED TO TURN DIAMOND INTO COAL?
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/Pre-crisis%20retcon/CANBREAKMOLECULESATSUPERSPEED.jpg
I am actually looking for feats that have been retcon for Superman
The evidence of the retcon is in Action Comics 650 if anyone has a doubt
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/Pre-crisis%20retcon/RETCON.jpg
The event mentioned in Action Comics #650 REFFER to The events that happened in JLA V1 96-97-98, 121, 183-184-185
Issue 96 mentions at least ONE event from past issues, So technically IT will count as well which are the events from JLA # 94. Issue #97 reffers to another instance in which Snapper Carr ask Superman if He can turn diamond into coal.
JLA 183 also makes a refference of events in CLASSIC JIMMY OLSEN #147
JLA 185 also makes reffernce to events ocurred in Adventure Comics #460 and DC COMICS PRESENTS #17
Also EVERY SINGLE EVENT that happened in CRISIS OF INFINITE EARTHS can be used as canon for any hero.
Supergirl don’t ask me she is just a big continuity mess
Don’t think that CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS is canon for a lot of characters. Superman, Wonder Woman and I believe Batman were all out-right rebooted(I think Pre-CRISIS Wonder Woman was even degenerated into the very clay used to create Post-CRISIS Wonder Woman, but I could be wrong; I think her soul came to Olympus), and I don’t even know what they did with the Marvel Family and all the Fawcett characters. Plus, the Shazam wielders and the Legion Of Super-Heroes were rebooted with ZERO HOUR(followed by the “threeboot” of the Legion later on). Also, Captain Atom and others from the Charlton Comics made their last appearance in original form in CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, and were redone for Post-CRISIS DC.
The events of COIE have been mentioned in modern issues, that is why, those events are retcon
As far as I’m aware, CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS was always an event that happened, not that it happened, erased the previous Universe and had never happened in Post-CRISIS continuity. It’s just a lot of the past changed and very few were aware of the events, even those that participated who weren’t retconned(like Doctor Light II). I think Spectre, Phantom Stranger and some of the New Gods(at least Darkseid and Metron, maybe Highfather) were most who were still aware of the events that weren’t out-side the time stream or whatever you wanna call Kal-L and the like’s situation.
CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS is specifically mentioned in the timeline in the ZERO HOUR TPB and has been discovered to have happened by scientists at least shown during OUR WORLDS AT WAR, hence why Imperiex Prime chose Earth to “hallow” for the universe’s destruction. As it was the center of both CRISIS and ZERO HOUR.
But what exactly do you mean anyways Alberto? How is it that every single event during this is canon for all characters? Like I said, several characters were rebooted after this, Doctor Light is the only character I can think of off-hand who would have had little to no changes whatsoever who participated, since she first appeared during CRISIS. She just forgot all that happened.
They have explained everything since COIE
Flash was capable only to run at the speed of sound after COIE this happened right before in the prologue of COIE
In zero hour Parallax explained how he was able to gather residual energy from the anti-monitor on the previous crisis to travel in the time stram and being capable to destroy time lines, the same way AM did
In 52 Dona Troy has a well kept archive of the events that happened in COIE.
I think they mention the events in countdown as well
On HISTORY OF THE DC UNIVERSE the events of COIE happened like 1 or 2 years after the first apparition of Superman in Metropolis.
But BEFORE LEGENDS
1 or 2 years being a vague term for COMIC time.
You mean Wally could only run at the speed of sound? That was psychological due to Barry’s death.
I’d have to look through that but I don’t recall anything along those lines being mentioned in ZERO HOUR. But I believe the Guardians were some of the few to know what had happened, and Hal mentioned that he got the knowledge to recreate the universe from the Guardians, so that would be more why he knew about CRISIS.
Donna Troy’s continuity is even more screwed-up. Wasn’t she supposed to be a Titan Of Myth or something and out-side the time stream? Been reading 52 though and haven’t gotten to that point where it’s mentioned, when I do I’ll see why she knew.
But still not sure how you’re arguing that all events of CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS can count towards the heroes who participated in it, especially with Superman and Wonder Woman.
But on comicbook time, as far as I’m aware, DC has it so that the JLA had formed 10 years ago, so whatever year it is in the real world, it was 10 years prior. So now it would be 2000 that the JLA was formed, and Superman would’ve been around a little bit longer. But I do not know if they’ve changed that, as they’ve retconned again who the founding JLA members were. I don’t even know if JLA: YEAR ONE is still in continuity at all or not.
You mean Wally could only run at the speed of sound? That was psychological due to Barry’s death.
Yes, I know the cause was retcon afterwards. But at the end of COEI Wally was not longer able to run at the speed of light and the fastest He was able to go was the speed of sound. The Original reason of the depowerment was because AM struck him.
I’d have to look through that but I don’t recall anything along those lines being mentioned in ZERO HOUR. But I believe the Guardians were some of the few to know what had happened, and Hal mentioned that he got the knowledge to recreate the universe from the Guardians, so that would be more why he knew about CRISIS.
Page 6 of the last issue of Zero Hour
Hal is talking to Guy, batgirl, extant, centurion? and triumph about how He found residual energy from the previous crisis and He absorb it.
He even said When We all fought the Anti-Monitor
Donna Troy’s continuity is even more screwed-up. Wasn’t she supposed to be a Titan Of Myth or something and out-side the time stream? Been reading 52 though and haven’t gotten to that point where it’s mentioned, when I do I’ll see why she knew.
Is funny that you say that, because The little robot who is thelling the story to Donna says that to her. The little robot is supposed to be the same recorder that Harbinger used in COIE.
It starts in 52 week 2 and ends in 52 week 11 I think. They mention the events from the 1st meetting of the JLA and the JSA all the way to the IC, passing thru COIE and Zero Hour.
They also mention the events in countdown 49 thru 38. Actually from 49 to 45 they mentioned a lot of stuff that happened in the silver age
But still not sure how you’re arguing that all events of CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS can count towards the heroes who participated in it, especially with Superman and Wonder Woman.
We are not arguing, I’m sharing my opinion with you. And the reason why I’m saying that those can be used for modern era Superman is because they count as retcons if they are mentioned in a modern story. Crisis has been mentioned a lot of times in modern stories as part of the history of the DC U
But on comicbook time, as far as I’m aware, DC has it so that the JLA had formed 10 years ago, so whatever year it is in the real world, it was 10 years prior. So now it would be 2000 that the JLA was formed, and Superman would’ve been around a little bit longer. But I do not know if they’ve changed that, as they’ve retconned again who the founding JLA members were. I don’t even know if JLA: YEAR ONE is still in continuity at all or not.
JLA year one is still continuity. And yes year passed different in DC. But after you finish 52 then you will see what I’m talking about.
Is the same as those events mentioned in Action Comics 650. The fact that they are mentioned in mainstream retcons the event, unless, they specify is an alternate reality.
Don’t recall Wally being struck by Anti-Monitor, but it’s been a while since I read COIE, and being sick certainly doesn’t help my recollection on the more obscure aspects. But I don’t think Wally was actually limited to the speed of sound, though that might’ve been the OFFICIAL stance and what he was often shown at. But I believe he was at least low-level supersonic. Didn’t Superman’s first race with Wally(and the first Post-CRISIS Superman/Flash race) have them clocked at four times the speed of sound? Also around this era, Superman was officially slower than Wally, but still managed to go over a thousand times the speed of sound on at least one occasion, and I think he out-raced lightning(over Mach 150) on another during this era.
I think I was referring to that scene you’re talking about(and it was Alpha Centurion). I’d have to find my ZERO HOUR TPB to get the quote, but considering Hal said something along the lines of the Guardians gave him the knowledge to do it(and didn’t he absorb the knowledge of the Guardians?) would imply that he didn’t remember the events himself.
I do not recall that scene with Donna Troy, so either you’re wrong about when it happened, or it was so unmemorable that I’m drawing a blank. I should be well past Week 2, but don’t even remember SEEING Donna Troy.
I’m still wondering where you get that COIE is canon for using for ALL heroes. Sure, Superman’s been getting Pre-CRISIS stuff retconned back into his continuity, but seems like only lately you could make the case for COIE being part as a whole. They certainly rebooted the character, starting from scratch so to speak after CRISIS when Byrne wrote THE MAN OF STEEL mini. Wonder Woman especially because Pre-CRISIS Wonder Woman’s body was degenerated into the clay that was used to make Post-CRISIS Wonder Woman if I’m remembering right. Pre-CRISIS Wonder Woman’s soul did though go to Olympus to be with the Olympians. I believe Post-CRISIS Wonder Woman’s origin is also VERY different, in regards to her getting her powers, over Pre-CRISIS. We know Diana, Post-CRISIS, was given life and power by the Olympian goddesses(plus Hermes). I don’t remember how Pre-CRISIS Diana was born, but didn’t her powers work like an Amazonian version of Iron Fist? In the sense of she had to develop her mind and body to use mental energy/lifeforce/whatever to amp her physical strength and stats? Of course I dunno if this stuck, as she also started gaining more powers as it went on and became powerful enough to go toe-to-toe with Pre-CRISIS Superman.
I ask if JLA: YEAR ONE is still canon due to the fact that they retconned the founding of the JLA again. Didn’t they change it back to Superman and Batman were founding JLAers(though Superman did help the founding members in the initial Apaxallation or however it’s spelled invasion, he not only didn’t join with the start of the JLA, but out-right refused membership when asked to join later-on), and didn’t they replace Wonder Woman BACK as a founding member over Black Canary? Also I remember an earlyish JLA storyline, it might have been Mark Waid filling in, but I think it was Grant Morrison. Where those photons were split in half and the scientist who did it ended-up gaining the power to alter odds into his favor, only it started changing the odds of things happening through the past, like America failed to win it’s independence, and the like. Martian Manhunter had taken a gamble when he started to fade-out that Atom would be the 7th JLA member to be there(as things revolved around 7, and Batman had stated that the JLA would stay at a steady 7 members). J’Onn figured that it’d be Atom, because he was the 7th member to join the JLA. Wouldn’t be the case anymore though if they went back to the founding members were Superman, Batman, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter, unlike JLA: YEAR ONE(where it was that minus Superman and Batman, and replace Wonder Woman with Black Canary)?
This is from 52
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/Pre-crisis%20retcon/D.jpg
This is from countdown
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/Pre-crisis%20retcon/D3.jpg
You see a new timeline was formed with elements of Universe 1 and Universe 2.
This is why Martian Manhunter and power girl rememebered Pre-crisis events with Superman on it even thoug it never happened in modern history
All that means though is that they were having some Pre-CRISIS elements of Superman’s continuity as canon, whether it be a retretcon or “revealing” it.
OK, so We agree that ONLY those events mentioned in Action Comics #650 are canon for Superman
and they will also count for the JLA or at least for the parts of the Justice League involved in those
incidents. After all MMH is saying that Superman saved the JLA. So those events will count also for:
GL, Hawkman, Flash, Aquaman, Adam Strange and whoever else was involved ONLY on those issues.
This are a few scans from the 52 series from my photobucket
http://s647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Crisis/
So I’m lost. Are you changing your stance from everything from COIEs counts for EVERYONE to just some stuff is canon and it depends on the characters, or what? That’s what I’ve said from the begining.
And you still haven’t told me where the Donna Troy scan comes from, if it’s FROM 52 or from a tie-in, because unless you’re mistaken on which issue it comes from, I’ve already read the issue and do NOT recall anything mentioning the 52 universes or COIE or anything in such detail.
So I’m lost. Are you changing your stance from everything from COIEs counts for EVERYONE to just some stuff is canon and it depends on the characters, or what? That’s what I’ve said from the begining.
No, I am not changing my stance, The events of COEI happened in the history of DC universe, therefore , IF refered in a post COEI issue they become canon for everyone involved on it. IF DONNA TROY talks about a crisis in which Alan Scott is shown fighting shadows, that means Alan Scott fought on the crisis, IF Alan Scott is still alive and is the same Alan Scott, it means COEI is canon for Alan Scott.
And you still haven’t told me where the Donna Troy scan comes from, if it’s FROM 52 or from a tie-in, because unless you’re mistaken on which issue it comes from, I’ve already read the issue and do NOT recall anything mentioning the 52 universes or COIE or anything in such detail.
Donna appears in a supplemental material AT THE END of every issue from week 3 to week 11 in the 52 series
Correction it starts at week 2
OK, you’re sticking to your initial stance, but just because they’re recalling the events doesn’t mean it’s canon for them. As much as that doesn’t make sense, considering it was a universal crisis that effected continuity of several characters, how is it that it counts for everyone that participated JUST because it’s being remembered? At least with the Donna Troy example, seems she either just knows because others who were able to record the events have left it for her to know, or because she’s an anomaly that her memory was triggered because of being told of the events. But using Donna Troy really doesn’t work, like I said because she’s that anomaly. So far you’ve either shown people who WOULD have remembered it due to who/what they are(Guardians, Monitors, Harbinger), or that they were spared from being erased from reality(Kal-L, Superboy Prime, E3 Luthor).
And yeah, that makes a lot of sense if the Donna Troy stuff happened in back-up stories, as I’m reading through the TPBs. But I can’t click on your latest link, right now some websites aren’t working for me.
It seems that even if the characters origins were revamped, the current DC events have retcon the origins.
Now Superman was again superboy and He meet Lex back in smallville, just to give an example
It’s still iffy AT BEST if it’s canon for every character. In a sense, COIE happened, but it didn’t happen.
And did Clark and Lex ever encounter each other in Smallville even Pre-CRISIS? I do remember something like that being shown on SUPER FRIENDS, but I never heard of it in the actual comics, and figured SMALLVILLE came-up with that part. So did it actually happen Pre-CRISIS or did they make it that due to SMALLVILLE’s popularity?
Yes they did meet each other in smallville in PC era, they used to be “best buds” until Superboy save him from a lab experiment in which Lex lost his hair, that is why lex hated so much Superman, because according to him it was his fault that he lost his hair
Silly PC era
Oh and remember is COEI did happened, just somehow they “forgot” about it. I say they “forgot” because almost every hero remembers the Anti-Monitor.
So, SUPERFRIENDS was pretty accurate on the Superboy kid Lex Luthor thing. In the Pre-CRISIS comic, did Superboy blow the smoke/vapors back into the lab or something like that? I think I saw that episode where some strange people from another planet visit a post-apocalyptic Earth with no life on it, visit the Hall Of Justice and look through the archives, and see how Lex Luthor became evil.
And the reason they forgot about the events is because the whole universe’s timeline changed, so COIE happened, but kinda didn’t at the same time. Meaning it’s questionable for who it counts for. I’m not even sure if Darkseid was uneffected or simply being a New God of his position had him gain/retain knowledge of it. I remember reading he used knowledge of Pre-CRISIS Parasite to indirectly create the Post-CRISIS Parasite.
So, basically you’re still failing to show how it’s canon for all characters, as several were completely redone and hadn’t actually participated.
And are you sure of the week being right for 52 for the Donna Troy scan? I’m past the week and don’t recall even mention of the multiverse. Or is that from a tie-in that wasn’t collected in the TPBs?
The event of COIE and the existency of the old multiverse are part of the DCU “history”
There was a Superman, batman, gl, jla involved
All those characters have been recalled on events prior, during and after the crisis.
I’m going to show every single scan in which someone from DCU mentions the crisis.
Power girl did not remember the crisis yet it does not mean that she did not participate on it.
There are several characters that remember the crisis
Hall Jordan as parallax
Barry Allen
Power Girl
The guardians
Psycho pirat (deceased)
Superman Kal-l (deceased)
Superboy Prime
Lex Luthor (earth 3 deceased)
Monitors
Donna Troy
Harbinger
All those character KNOW there was a crisis and they remember the events that happened
They remember they were involved in a crisis and they remember they fought against the Anti-Monitor.
WW and Supergirl or any character that was in there bbut did not “existed” are just a big continuity mess.
If I have enough time latter I’ll show you all the scans of Donna Troy talking about the history of the DC universe
Yes, I know COIE “happened” even though the events weren’t part of history. And I know lots and lots of characters participated. But you’re failing to show just because people remember, that that means it’s canon for ALL characters.
So, first you’re saying Power Girl did not remember, then she DOES remember? But her swapping between Earth-2 Kryptonian and her unique Atlantean(pre-cataclysm) physiology could be a factor in why she didn’t remember, despite having directly participated when an E2 Kryptonian.
Of course the Guardians and Monitors would remember, considering who they are. Harbinger would also fall into this. And of course Superboy Prime, Kal-L, and Lex Luthor of Earth-3 would remember, since they were sparred from being erased completely(though their histories were erased). But a lot of your examples seem to point that either the other characters don’t actually remember, simply gained knowledge of the events, or being educated on the events triggered their memories.
But you’re still failing to show why it’s canon for EVERYONE. Knowledge of it happening doesn’t mean much if they didn’t participate after the retcon.
Lets see if We agree in something first
If Martian Manhunter in Action comics #650 recalls an event that was before the crisis it means this is a Retcon event for Superman and the Justice league, right? After all He is saying that Superman came and save the JLA from Starbreaker.
Do We have an understanding so far?
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/Pre-crisis%20retcon/RETCON.jpg
All that means though is that they were having some Pre-CRISIS elements of Superman’s continuity as canon, whether it be a retretcon or “revealing” it. At best it means COIE counts for Superman, not all heroes who participated that got retconned. There’s always been elements of Pre-CRISIS continuity that were still in place after the revamping of the DCU.
And you also never answered the question on if that thing with Donna Troy and the robot was in a tie-in to 52, as I cannot recall seeing that and I’ve read past the week you mentioned.
It is a supplemental material at the end of those issues.
Don’t worry I will post all of them when I have the time to do it
This are from countdown
http://s647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/RETCON%20COUNTDOWN/
Probably it was not collected in the TPB
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/retcons%2052/cover.jpg
I really love in that DC universe Trailer How Superman Owned Black Adam and took Black Adams punches as if they where NOTHING.Block a punch (SHOCKWAVE in background to boot).That is a lot of power behind that punch,yet Sups didn’t think any thing of it.Black Adam is Just as powerful as Captain marvel right,yet Capt. Marvel is fourth on this list. no way is this helping Capt Marvel As being just as or more powerful than Superman.NO DAMN WAY!
um Why are you using a prerendered trailer for an upcoming MMORPG BASED on the DC Universe as evidence of Superman’s superiority over Captain Marvel? It’s not like that trailer had an accurate portrayal of Superman, or a number of other characters. Hell, that whole using the Shazam bolt as a nuke is something I don’t think has happened in comics(not to my knowledge, but could have). Sure, it’s been used as a weapon on multiple occasions, but I don’t recall it ever causing wide-spread destruction like it hit with the impact of a nuclear explosion.
You want to argue Superman>>Captain Marvel, use SUPERMAN/BATMAN #4. Where Superman’s worn down from multiple fights against large teams(including having at least some of his solar energy drained by Nightshade), has been effected by Kryptonite to an unknown degree for a while(with it increasing as that giant meteor got closer), and getting right back up from a fresh Captain Marvel super-speed dive-bomb sucker-shot attacking Superman. Then Superman looking superior to the fresh Captain Marvel.
I will use any And all examples that I want to, I still made my point,my my my how defensive we all get when something like this comes to light. Everyone always say Canon Canon Canon,and Alot of times i see comics posted that are clearly not canon to argue a point. Capt Marvel in no way shape or form will ever be equal to or superior To Superman.
You can use any examples you want, but you’ll just get laughed at and dismissed as having no credibility whatsoever. At least others are using comics, whether they’re intentionally not using canon examples or not doesn’t change the fact that even non-canon comics are going to hold more weight than cartoons or a TRAILER for a VIDEO GAME.
And you’re saying I’m so defensive? Dude, you need to get your head checked. Not only have I argued for Superman’s superiority over Captain Marvel on here, but I fucking GAVE YOU AN EXAMPLE OF A WEAKENED SUPERMAN LOOKING BETTER THAN CAPTAIN MARVEL. Do you not pay attention?
funny how a 10 year old can get the best of you,and I dont give a crap about being crediable. like so many of you think you are.
Yes dude i saw that. I am sorry that you think that i did not.That is your problem however.
Hey, just for fun, here’s a couple more examples of Superman showing superiority over Captain Marvel!
ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN #494: This didn’t actually “happen” but was a potential future Kismit showed Superman if he were to ever give-in to his Kryptonian heritage and become a dictator. So thus it being a potential future shown by Kismit in a comic that’s canon has it hold a fuck of a lot more weight than Superman beating-down Black Adam in a video game trailer. Anyways, both fights pretty much happen off-panel, but Superman had just defeated a team of Batman, Booster Gold, Supergirl(the Matrix-era Supergirl), the Hal Jordan Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, and he has Flash(I think Wally) in his hand by the throat. Captain Marvel comes in and Superman says to join him, Captain Marvel says he’s going to stop Superman or die trying. So Superman’s likely not in top shape due to having just defeated a pretty impressive team(albeit off-panel) and Captain Marvel’s fresh for the fight. The next panel we show states Superman has become ruler of Earth.
ACTION COMICS #831: Superman fights Black Adam(who Superman specifically states hits harder than Captain Marvel) at worst to a draw. One could argue though that Superman’s performance convinced Black Adam to give-up, as he put his back to Superman figuring Superman’s sense of honor wouldn’t let him get punched in the back of the head unanswered.
So much for me being defensive of Captain Marvel being inferior to Superman!! Learn to debate better, and pay attention more too, gregory.
sure as if i care what you think. I will still be here to say how rediculous you all are to think that there is any superhero more powerful than Superman.
LMAO You’re just an idiot troll who has no clue whatsoever what he’s talking about. You did not get the best of me. Come back when your balls drop, maybe you’ll have SOME CLUE of what you’re speaking of.
I remember a while back, I think it was on the Superman VS Thor article, that someone was trying to argue that Thor>Superman because Batman’s beaten Superman, but there’s no way Batman could beat Thor. Of course this is a stupid argument as it’s ignoring that A: Batman has not even beaten Superman from any in-continuity example I’ve seen(several people who try to argue here that Batman’s beaten Superman only show single pages or even single panels of fights so thus are invalid) and B: That doesn’t work because Batman knows Superman well, has resources Thor doesn’t, and fights in ways Thor doesn’t. Let’s use MMA as an example. Say Fighter A and C are both strikers, Fighter B is a grappler. Fighter A beat the shit out of Fighter B, and Fighter B owned Fighter C. Does this prove that Fighter A beats Fighter C? No. Fighter C can be a far better striker than Fighter A from both a technical striking and knock-out power point, but has no ground game whatsoever and is easily taken down by Fighter B. So Fighter C can’t defend himself when he’s on the ground. Fighter A is a good striker, but not in Fighter C’s class, but has great take-down defense and has a good enough ground game to not be dominated if Fighter B takes him to the ground. So Fighter B loses to Fighter A because he can’t take him down, beats Fighter C because he can, but Fighter A can’t hang with Fighter C in stand-up and gets owned. But this is pretending people are right that Batman actually has beaten Superman.
But anyways, Batman allegedly beating Superman via weakness exploitation(and a bunch of other stuff, like powered-armor in THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, though that wasn’t even a win) sure makes Superman look better than Thor by comparison when Thor doesn’t even have a weakness for Captain America to exploit, and yet Captain America beat-down Thor.
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss79/MoseyGod/CykeMyNuts.jpg
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss79/MoseyGod/CykeMyNuts2.jpg
Now of course this is a bad showing that I don’t even consider for Thor. Much like I don’t consider Firelord’s loss to Spider-Man when Firelord VS X shows-up. But the point is to show the ridiculousness of the argument that Thor>Superman because Superman allegedly lost to Batman, and there’s no way Batman could beat Thor.
Now to give full-disclosure, there were extenuating circumstances against Thor. He had an arm missing(and I think eye too), been worn down by a fight with Hulk and Thing and his child was taken hostage, so I think he didn’t fight back against Cap. But those factors don’t really matter considering the fact that Captain America should not be able to hurt him with his barehands without some power-up like gains the Unipower. And yet, Captain America beat Thor down in less than a page and a half, a whole four panels of actual attacks. And this was after he just had a showing where he KILLED Hulk AND Thing while severely handicapped.
By comparison, the only time I’ve seen Superman have that embarrassing of a showing was when Lex Luthor’s bodyguards beat him up. But he had the excuse of that Kryptonite tumor having gotten so bad that he barely had the strength to walk and was actually EMITTING Kryptonite radiation. And this was followed by him being largely intact after a fall from the top of a skyscraper. So that’s a reverse of the Thor scans. He has an embarrassing showing(with extenuating circumstances that hurt him far more than Thor) THEN has an impressive feat(durability). Whereas Thor had an impressive feat then gets embarrassed.
And people completely ignored the scenario I put up when asked how Batman could possibly beat Thor. We’ve seen Thor be effected by gas before, and be hurt by pressure point attacks(though that was Mantis, who had developed Martial Arts skills beyond the level of Batman or Captain America, where she does things that aren’t humanly possible even for comicbook characters). Batman has a device that he threatened to blow a hole through Captain Atom’s “skin” with. Though we didn’t see it actually happen, we’d have to assume it’s pretty powerful if Batman’s threatening to do that.
So I’d see Batman gassing Thor then using that device to hit his pressure points, then eventually in the head for a KO, as a lot more plausible than an unenhanced Captain America simply beating down Thor(even a worn-down Thor not defending himself).
That’s not exactly a beat down, he surprised him with a hit to the face with his shield, and this is after Thor KILLED Hulk and mot everyone else in the Marvel U.
The point is that Captain America shouldn’t be able to hurt Thor like that, even with a sneak-attack. The only times I’ve seen Superman smacked around like that by someone of that level had him weakened to a great extent. Like I said, when Luthor’s bodyguards beat-up Superman, he had that Kryptonite tumor in him that got to the level that Superman was actually EMITTING Kryptonite radiation. THEN he had a good showing, being mostly ok falling from the upper levels of a skyscraper.
Delta
Which version of hulk did thor kill?
And which version of thor was that?
Far as I know, the whole thing was set in a potential future, that Thor later stopped from happening by going to his younger self and informing current-Thor to stop the events that had everything happen from, well, ever happening.
Most of the fight was off-panel, I’d have to find it.
And here I actually considered you one of the more intelligent ones.As for my balls I am sure that is something you are quite use to seeing lots of . This time choke on them.Still there is no greater more powwerful superhero that than SUPERMAN.
And I care about your former consideration of me being one of the more intelligent ones here why? You can’t even distinguish canon from non-canon and use not caring and can use whatever you want as a shield from criticism. You’re also dense enough that you’re using a prerendered TRAILER OF A VIDEO GAME as evidence of Superman being superior to Captain Marvel. Despite the fact that it wasn’t against Captain Marvel, and there were serious inconsistencies, including for Superman himself. You know, Superman was sun-bathing for a while in that trailer, to have him at a higher level than normal, right? So thus how can you say Superman is superior to Captain Marvel because an amped Superman beat Black Adam? Or the fact that Kryptonite effected Superman SO BADLY when we’ve seen even unamped him be effected much less so?
Oh good excuse sun bathed Superman wow. So you are putting credibility to this trailer after all hmmm. Superman OWNed Black Adam in any case.As for you being able to respond well I think i get the message. LOUD and clear. I am hurt. truly hurt.NO really I am.
Wow, you really are stupid. I’m sure I’m not the only one laughing at you.
Oh and by the way? I am familiar with balls, due to directing your mom’s world record attempt at most consecutive sex sessions.
Testing?
my mom loves her sessions. oh she wanted me to tell you that you forgot your undies at her place. I told her to use them to cover the truck beside the trailer. Honey I laugh AT myself the more the merrier.
I’m…..not sure how to respond to that, due to it seems like something a tweaker squirrel who somehow speaks English would say.
good night love.I am just silly an bored thats all .No i really am not up to speed on All the FACTS more than likely never will be. That is what you guys are here for. Has helped some. I am just a superman nutcase. and there nothing out there that can convince me that he is not the most powerful thats all.Delta i know you could care less about what I have tosay.So i won’t say much more After this, unless I ask a question.If you choose not to answer thats your choice.I have concidered you,shadowhunter, and Alberto ,and a few others the most credible ones on here thats why i keep coming back.So I will shut up,and stop being STUPID.(that will be hard for me). Maybe i will learn something from you guys.Goodnight.
Gonads and strife. Gonads and strife. Gonads and strife.
Anyways, where have I recently argued against Superman? I was merely pointing-out the flaw in using DC UNIVERSE ONLINE’s trailer.
Dammit I can’t post my response to gregory. Zeromage, is there some kinda profanity filter now?
OK, I can post the first part of my response to gregory, but I can’t post the owning I wrote-up for him regarding me seeing a lot of balls. Fuck, what’s up with that?
Mister Fantastic at The-One-Above-All?!!?!!?
http://img239.imageshack.us/i/reedsuper2ir2.jpg/
http://img149.imageshack.us/i/reedsuper4hl5.jpg/
http://img149.imageshack.us/i/reedsuper5le6.jpg/
http://img157.imageshack.us/i/reedsuper6iq6.jpg/
And yeah, this is really more of a joke than anything. But what won’t Marvel allow Reed to get away with when he has Prep-Time?
The WEAKEST two members who contributed to that energy blast are Elders Of The Universe. And it includes the fucking Living Tribunal!! Then you’ve got a Cosmic Cube given sentience(Shaper Of Worlds), Stranger, Lord Chaos and Master Order and their agent In-Betweener. And this blast was created with the intent to completely eradicate Galactus. And Reed’s energy cannon stopped it.
But then again Doctor Doom had taken the powers of Galactus and The Beyonder during SECRET WARS so I guess this isn’t something we shouldn’t expect Reed to be incapable of doing, by that “logic.”
Wait, just realized those scans were from an MC2 comic, which are kinda WHAT IF?s. Still though, surprising they’d let Reed do that as I think it’s even more ridiculous than Wolverine slashing-open Silver Surfer in that AGE OF APOCALYPSE timeline WHAT IF? and Wolverine cutting off Thanos’ arm during the INFINITY GAUNTLET WHAT IF? thing.
hm…..
Still waiting for responses from Reporter on the whole Mikaboshi thing as well as his claim that Zeus=Odin, Fury on the whole Doctor Manhattan thing, ShadowHunter on his claim that Wonder Woman>Green Lantern, and Tim on the…..train our debate left at.
If you guys respond in the original sections, would appreciate you noting a reply here that you’ve responded, as I only occasionally check the previous page now.
Hey if hollywood dicided to do a shazam/captain marvel movie who who would you pick to play CaptM. better yet, who could play the part of Black Adam.At the moment I got nothing.
No idea
wow that was fun.
“Machete” should be Black Adam.
If you don’t know who is “Machete” look for Danny Trejo
Oddly I like that choice alot if only he was a hair younger he would work.I have seen some pic of the Dwayne Johnson The ROCK as Black Adam.I am not sure I buy it though.thanks for responding in any case.By the way you rock when it come to facts.
Thanks
I was kidding with the Danny Trejo thing
The Rock will be great as Black Adam, as long as He does not make his Rock face.
@Delta
Since you remember every single event and have all feats issue # will you mind to share so I can keep a copy of it
Also If you know in what issues Superman’s power was described by scienteist as only have the limits he puts
There are a lot of things I go off memory, but I actually keep lists of feats for various character, with categories(like Strength, Durability, Speed, ect.). I have a basic list of categories and add more as needed depending on the character(Superman actually has so many feats I included sub-categories). I could email you them I guess, if that’s what you mean.
And I’m not entirely sure of what you mean on the second question. While it may have happened, I’m not aware of any instance where a scientist gave a thorough analysis/description of Superman’s powers and how they work. There’s been several times where specific powers have had some mention by Superman or others, but I don’t know of any examples that you seem to be referring to. Maybe you’re referring to Hamilton testing Superman after his return from death, when Eradicator had repowered Superman with what Hamilton referred to as “Kryptonite X?” I hadn’t read the issue, but know Hamilton did some study, though if there were any limits stated I dunno.
Completely off-topic but how is this song still awesome?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5-XC6DvOZg&feature=related
And how is GSP an awesome fighter despite essentially being french? HE SHOULD BE TAPPING-OUT!!!!!!
@Delta
This is my e-mail
biensalsa@yahoo.com
Thanks
It’s funny how you list Thor as the powerful. He fought Hulk numerous times and always had his ass handed to him. He could never defeat him. What gives??
Pre-Crisis Events that have been mentioned in modern mainstream comics (retcon)
JLA: 9,10,12,21,22,29,30,37,38,47,55,56,64,74,75,94,96,97,98,100,107,120,121,123,124,126,127,137,147,148,153,168,183,184,185,195?,196,197?,244 and 245
Are you referring to events in the Pre-CRISIS JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA comics, or modern JLA comics with Pre-CRISIS events mentioned? It seems to be the JLoA stuff instead of Grant Morrison’s JLA, as I don’t recall anything regarding mentioning Pre-CRISIS events in several of those issues you mentioned.
So what are, at least some, of the events, and where have they been referenced?
Oh and Alberto, sent the email.
Pre-Crisis JLA
Maybe this will get some discussion going, but I doubt it since the 4 most frequent posters(myself included) all seem to agree on this, to varying degrees.
Outside of denial and Superman hate, I can’t see why anybody argues that Thor is even close to Superman in strength, let alone superior like some idiots claim. At the least, Superman has a moderate edge in strength against Thor, not just slight or it be even(or too close to even to tell).
Some of Thor’s best strength feats? Resisting the gravity of a neutron star. Superman has resisted the gravity of a “double black hole.”
Superman’s matched strength with Hulk in direct grappling, stalemating for a time twice? Superman’s matched strength with Doomsday, who is far superior to Hulk.
Thor beat Hulk and Thing to death, mostly off-panel? A much weaker Superman beat Doomsday to death. And it’s arguable that when he finally went all-out, he did it in a pretty short period of time, when extremely injured, as multiple times he commented he didn’t seem to be doing much to Doomsday, with a few exceptions.
Thor lifted the Midgard Serpent? A much weaker Superman threw a spaceship 4 times the size of an aircraft carrier(and an aircraft carrier weighs nearly 100,000 tons) into ORBIT.
Thor with the whole “world engine” thing? A weaker Superman powered the gears of Mageddon, which dwarfed the Earth/Moon system.
Then we’ve got numerous other examples for Superman. Slowing down the “weight of eternity” with Wonder Woman. Containing a miniature black hole in his hands, keeping it from expanding. On at least two occasions, the collateral damage of his fights has destroyed planets/planetoids(including one instance under a red sun). His fight with Kal-L had “shattered the boundaries of space and time.” Him lifting infinite weight with help from an alternate Captain Marvel, having Marvel help due to uncertainty, then the technically weaker Ultraman(alternate universe version of Superman) is able to lift it on his own. Punching Wonder Woman so hard she went flying at perhaps hundreds of times the speed of light.
Sure, people argue that Superman has a larger number of feats due to more appearances, but that’s really just an excuse for their inability to counter Superman’s strength feats, isn’t it? It’s not just about quantity, it’s about the quality of the feats. The fact that there’s a larger number of impressive strength feats just makes the argument harder for the Thor side, but they can’t even counter the fact that Superman’s feats are simply more impressive, not just numerous. Sure, they say that they can’t see Superman doing something strength-wise that Thor can’t, but that’s just wishful thinking. It’s almost as bad as people arguing Doctor Manhattan is the most powerful hero.
And then there’s also Superman’s portrayals of comparative strength. For example, even the Byrne-era Superman had been able to be relatively evenly matched against those considered to be peers or superiors even with extenuating circumstances working AGAINST Superman. Like Superman’s early fight with Eradicator, Superman was able to fight on a relatively even level with Eradicator hand-to-hand, despite the fact that Eradicator had turned the sun red and Superman had even entered the outer layers of the sun(his first time going further than skirting the surface). Superman was able to BEAT Lar-Gand, who at the time was being implied to be superior to Superman(since it was being implied that Daxamites were more powerful than Kryptonians), despite the fact that the Eclipso-possessed Lar had knocked the air completely out of Superman’s lungs, they were on the Moon, and this was a point where Superman needed to breath to the level that space-travel beyond the Moon without an air supply was a problem. Then the time when Superman fought Lobo fairly evenly, got tackled by Lar(making it two-on-one), and while they were distracted smacked their heads together One-Shotting the two of them.
Then there’s other examples. Comparing to when Namor and Hulk jumped Thor and restrained him, they were straining to, using both arms each to hold one of Thor’s, but they were succeeding when it came to pure strength. A couple of examples of Superman VS other Kryptonians on relative strength. Superman was being held by Ursa and Non(a genetic freak amongst Kryptonians) in a similar manner and broke their grip, throwing them off. Or the time that five Kryptonian Soldiers(though no-names, they’d still at least break into the Class 100 rank), one having Superman in a headlock and the other four having one of Superman’s limbs, in a manner much like Hulk/Namor had Thor(meaning using both arms for one limb and having the leverage advantage) and Superman breaks their holds and throws them off him. Then we’ve got other examples, like from the KING OF THE WORLD storyline where the combined efforts of Steel, Supergirl, Big Barda, Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman were only able to temporarily restrain a weaker than current Superman. Or an issue of SUPERMAN/BATMAN where Hawkgirl, Ultra, Blue Beetle II(in the alien power armor), Kilowog(a GL with superhuman strength), Martian Manhunter, Power Girl and a bunch of others I either didn’t recognize, or wasn’t able to get a good enough look at to identify, barely manage to even SLOW DOWN Superman? The most impressive feat for Thor against a team, in terms of relative strength, I know of out-side of the Namor/Hulk restraint was in SECRET WARS where Doctor Octopus and the Wrecking Crew were kinda able to restrain Thor, but that team wasn’t that impressive, especially with the Wrecking Crew showing to be fairly weak compared to now. And though this was also an example of skill/tactics on Superman’s part, he manhandled Ultraman then double One-Shotted him and Superwoman. I could continue, but I think I made my point.
Then there’s how Thor and Superman are portrayed against their biggest peers in strength, Hercules and Captain Marvel respectively. Though due to superior strength feats I give Thor the strength advantage, when the two have fought or competed in tests of strength, I have not seen one time where Thor has looked superior, and in fact have seen an example of Hercules looking better(due to skill, I guess being the better grappler). But with Superman and Captain Marvel, Captain Marvel has never looked superior to Superman that I’ve seen without using the Zeus-amping, going beyond his normal strength. Superman beat the shit out of Captain Marvel the first time they fought with Superman possessed by Eclipso(and while it’s been argued Eclipso-possession gives people powers, it’s seemed to do little if anything for those who already have super powers). Superman was showing the advantage at points their second fight where Superman was Eclipso-possessed with Captain Marvel only getting an advantage with Zeus-amping or using several Shazam bolts to weaken Superman(and still only being even with Superman after that). The two arm-wrestling matches I know of had Superman win the first(due to CM3 and Mary Marvel power-sharing at a critical moment; they were stalemated before hand) and drawing for hours before Superman noticed some crime or something and they stopped. The only win I know of for Captain Marvel against Superman was a complete and utter sucker-punch(Superman had his back turned and didn’t even know Marvel was going to attack) WITH the Zeus-amping(so increased strength PLUS mystical energy). Superman also had beaten the shit out of Captain Marvel though with a sucker-punch in an issue of JSA(which one could argue Captain Marvel was power-sharing) when Ultra-Humanite had taken over the world and had Superman and others mind-controlled. Then there’s the fight in SUPERMAN/BATMAN #4 which at worst for Superman can be called a draw. But Superman STILL looked superior to Captain Marvel despite being worn-down from multiple fights against entire teams(including an instance of an unknown amount of solar energy being drained by Nightshade), being effected to an unknown degree by Kryptonite, AND Captain Marvel starting the fight with a super-speed dive-bomb sneak-attack. And yeah, you could argue it a draw as Superman and Batman switched opponents to pull-off a plan where they play possum, but Superman still looked superior and had all those factors against him. Then off-panel Superman took-down Captain Marvel(with dialoguing heavily implying a sneak-attack). And this is if we don’t count that potential future(though the fight happened off-panel) or KINGDOM COME(but that’s an alternate Earth now) wins. I know the two have had other fights, but I haven’t seen them, but out of everything I’ve seen, Superman looks better against his established rival(Captain Marvel) than Thor does against his(Hercules). Also the fact that Captain Marvel’s powers are mystically based takes away much of the Thor having magick argument, especially when it comes to hand-to-hand combat, as unless Captain Marvel is Zeus-amping(which increases his strength as well as surrounds his fists with mystical energy), he has never shown to hurt Superman with his punches anymore than someone of equal strength, or even greater strength, who isn’t mystically powered. Same with Wonder Woman and Black Adam.
I’ll go on more points at a later time, but hopefully this’ll get a bit of discussion. Or just get a bunch of people to call me an idiot Superman fanboy and make unsubstantiated claims like how Thor’s beaten Gladiator who’s a more powerful version of Superman in the wet dreams of Marvel fanboys and not give any other reasoning. Or does nothing at all beside have Alberto make a comment.
IMO The Neutron star feat is missinterpreted
Thor gets bombed with Graviton bombs, then the graviton bomb creates an effect AKIN (similar, not equal) to that of a neutron star, that is WHY you see the debris collapsing into Thor’s body.
The effect is AKIN to a neutron star, not exactly a neutron star.
Also the feat in which Thor is holding his mallet with one hand vs Hulk and Namor, it seems it was due to the fact that The Mallet had a spell that prevents MORTAL BEINGS to take the mallet away from Thor’s hands.
We also pointed this out before to Zero and We challenged the Thor camp to show that Thor was ALMOST as strong or as durable as Superman.
There is nothing that shows that Thor is ALMOST as strong or as durable as Superman. Superman also has the advantage on other departments, but he is not as versatile as Thor, this and the fact that Thor is a magical being compensate somewhat for the disadvantages Thor may have vs Superman, or Superman may have vs Thor.
But I believe most times Superman will win.
Oh and the Infinite Book it seem it had all of existency inside, as described by the “second” Mandrakk in Superman beyond vol. 2
Interesting, didn’t know the full details on the neutron star thing. Got scans for it?
And I dunno if Mjolnir being in Thor’s hand had anything to do with him being restrained like he was. I think it was a loop-hole of Mjolnir being moved by someone not worth if Thor’s already holding it and someone overpowers Thor’s arm with Mjolnir(whether via leverage-based technique or out-right out-muscle him).
And yeah, the evidence shows Superman having a minimum of a moderate strength advantage, based on both feats and comparative strength showings. Like I said, Superman’s shown to be superior to Captain Marvel more than once, including when weakened by Kryptonite plus other factors. I don’t know of anytime that Thor has looked superior to Hercules. I could be wrong, as I haven’t seen every single one of their fights/competitions, but like I said before, Superman has won or looked superior a larger number of times, including while being effected by Kryptonite(albeit to an unknown degree) as well as other factors.
Though on the Thor having magick thing, Captain Marvel is a perfect example. Where has he shown to hurt Superman without Zeus-amping any more than General Zod or Non or others have? The only time where I’ve seen magick as a serious threat to a higher degree than an equivalent non-mystical attack is with mystical blades, and this very well can be because the sharp objects have the enchantment TO be sharp. It’s really funny how people use Superman getting cut by mystical blades as “proof” that Thor owns him, yet ignore how punches from Etrigan, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, Black Adam and others have hurt him little more, IF more at all, than equivalently strong punches from the non-mystical.
Mystical energy attacks might hurt him a bit more than equivalent non-mystical, but little more at best. I’ve pointed out before, when Superman’s durability was to the point that he could be badly effected by nuclear explosions, during that period there were two points where he took mystical energy blasts or explosions equivalent to nukes and was effected pretty much the same as when he was hit by actual nuclear explosions. And he’s taken mystical energy blasts from so many opponents(Blaze, Etrigan, Disciple, Shazam, and many more) that he certainly can endure Thor’s energy blasts.
This is the neutron star scan
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Thor/neutronstar.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Thor/Neutronstar2.jpg
The Mjolnir spell (3rd panel)
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/hulk%20vs%20thor/AVENGERS3.jpg
Yes- you are an idiot Delta & DC/Superman fanboy.
You make a lot of excuses why Superman loses to Captain Marvel shouldn’t count; instead of “real” reason which is Captain Marvel very close to being Superman equal. I agree Superman has more powers but most of Superman’s extra abilities don’t benefit him in fight against Captain Marvel. This was neatly told in All-Star Squadron issues 36-37; where Captain Marvel beat Superman with (no sneak attack involved).
Base solely on feats Superman appear to have clear strength advantage over Thor or does he? I know you don’t like to give Thor too much credit when it comes to comparing him to Superman but Thor did lift Odinsword which has incalculable weight & lifting of world serpent is more then feat show don’t have upper strength level. I can’t see why anybody would go on record and said Superman is stronger then Thor because neither of them have been shown to have upper strength limit. I have never seen where anyone state Thor has a upper strength limit.
Actually there Four Hero don’t have upper strenght limits Superman,Thor, Captain Marvel & Hulk.
Darryl…..
No bitch, you are the idiot. Plane and simple you goddamn retard. Look, first if you’re going to call me an idiot, you better sure as fuck make sure your damn spelling and grammar is correct. Bitch all you want that it’s the Internet, it’s just a piss-poor excuse you use to try to cover up the fact that you’re retarded. I would have to say Alberto’s grasp of the English language is superior to your’s.
And I really really wish I could have you on the ground and just stomp your groin over and over and over and over again. Not because you piss me off or anything, someone stupid as you is rather amusing. But that’s the problem. You’re a FUCKING IDIOT. You should not be allowed to reproduce, and I sincerely wish I could make sure of that.
I make a lot of excuses as to why Superman’s lost to Captain Marvel? I’ve seen ONE time where Captain Marvel has won, and it was with a Zeus-amped sucker-punch. How the fuck am I making excuses? Superman’s either won or drawn every other time. And hey guess what? Here’s another example of your innate stupidity. The ALL-STAR SQUADRON issues you are referring to are Pre-CRISIS, so thus do not count!! And I’d have to see them anyways. Considering the bullshit you claimed regarding that some comic writer told you there was an agreement that Superman would never lose to a Marvel character, and you could not even name him, just claimed it was at a convention, makes it HIGHLY SUSPECT AT BEST. But anybody with an ounce of sense knows you’re lying about it.
When it comes down to it, Captain Marvel does not have the feats to match Superman. One can argue that Captain Marvel has fewer appearances and rarely has lifting feats, but that does not change the fact that on multiple occasions, Superman has simply looked superior when the two have fought. Including the time Superman was worn down from fighting two entire teams, had some of his solar energy leeched by Nightshade, and was being effected by Kryptonite the entire time. I wasn’t making excuses for Superman there, which you seem to have gotten the impression due to the me keep-on making excuses for Superman(when he’s only lost ONCE Post-CRISIS). But if your reading comprehension where better than second-grade level then you MIGHT have noticed I said that at worst for Superman, the fight was a draw. With Superman looking superior over Captain Marvel. Despite all those. But if Captain Marvel is so close to equal to Superman, then why did Captain Marvel specifically have to use BOTH the Strength Of Hercules AND Atlas, something he had to actively do, to be able to match Superman in arm-wrestling? And Superman’s had explicit power-ups SINCE this arm wrestling match. Captain Marvel can use Zeus-amping to match, or even exceed, Superman’s strength, durability or speed, but he suffers in other areas if he does this.
Oh and Superman’s extra abilities don’t benefit him against Captain Marvel? Well I’ve only seen Superman use Heat Vision against Captain Marvel, but it had hurt Billy quite a bit, causing him to yell in pain. And this was the fight where Superman was effected by Kryptonite. And Superman wasn’t even going all-out. Though I don’t know of any times Superman’s used freeze breath on CM, I do know he’s used it on Wonder Woman, Bizarro and Darkseid and temporarily restrained them with it, so yeah it’d be useful against Captain Marvel. Not decisive, but useful. And though it’s rarely used, Torquasm-Vo would certainly be useful against Captain Marvel with the right application, being a serious Plot-Device and all.
First-off it’s “based” not “base” in this context. Second, yes, Superman is stronger than Thor based off feats. Bitch all your retard ass wants about me being bias and waah waah waah you little crybaby bitch, I’m right and you can’t counter it. First off, so what that Thor lifted the Odinsword? That doesn’t really prove anything, just because it’s “incalculable.” And Thor lifted the World Serpent? So what? It was big enough to wrap it’s self around the Earth, not the size of the Earth. Plenty of people said it wouldn’t even be as big as a third of the Moon, which Superman moved through Earth’s gravity, at NEAR-LIGHTSPEED. When weaker than he is currently. So much for that.
Again, you’re just going off the whole wishful thinking that Thor is even close to Superman in strength. Admit it, Thor has not been portrayed to be as strong as Superman, in terms of straight-up strength feats OR relative to others. I love how you avoided that part.
I don’t even know why you’re bothering to argue with me. Oh wait, I do. You only use the whole smoke-screen of I’m too immature when you have no counter, but when you pretend to have some balls and think you can beat me in a debate, you argue me. Then fall back on the you’re too mature for me(complete BULLSHIT you dumbass bitch) or pitch a hissy fit that you don’t have time.
But really, if you don’t have time to research these characters, which you’ve used as a crutch before, why the FUCK do you even bother to post on here beyond asking questions? You obviously have more free time than you’d care to admit. And if you’re so mature but want to say I’m wrong, why not just ignore the insults I give you and focus on the points I make? If you were capable of countering my points, you’d actually counter them instead of pitching a hissy fit like the bitch on the rag you are about you have a life or are too mature.
I DARE you to actually make a legit argument, and acknowledge ALL my points in the comment I made previously and here. Not just what you THINK you can deal with. You’re like One-Eyed Willie was except with worse spelling/grammar and attempts to act older and more mature(but it’s just that, an act). But you probably won’t, and what response you do make will be reaching further than Reed Richards to save face, you pathetic, somehow less than worthless piece of shit idiot. Good day dumbfuck.
The Superman in all star squadron comic book was Kal-L not Kal-El.
It was earth 2 Superman.
This is the end of the figth between earth 1 Superman vs Captain Marvel
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/435159-shazam_vs_superman_lce_58_super.jpg
Before this fight there was another in which a similar character like shazam fought against superman. The character looked almost identical to captain marvel, but they did not use the same outfit, because captain marvel had been only recently purchased by dc. the first fight was just to show the intention of introduce the character to the mainstream DC.
Captain Marvel lost vs Superman from earth 1
LMAO So wait, Darryl was even MORE off, not only was it Pre-CRISIS but against Kal-L, not Kal-El? I guess I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt though on not knowing before-hand, unlike he gave me about the Silver Surfer being KOed by a hammer thing being out of continuity. Assuming he was even correct/telling the truth.
I give him the benefit of the doubt not knowing, because I can’t honestly see that ignorant retard being able to differentiate between Kal-El and Kal-L, or tell when art work looks like it’s from the Pre-CRISIS era.
By the way Alberto, could you post scans of the whole fight?
Which fight?
All star squadron?
Collectors edition Superman vs Shazam?
Or the 1st fight?
EARTH 1 SUPERMAN VS CAPTAIN MARVEL
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/SupvsCap.jpg
EARTH 1 SUPERMAN VS CAPTAIN THUNDER
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/superman276.jpg
EARTH 2 SUPERMAN VS CAPTAIN MARVEL
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/allstarsquadron36.jpg
I was referring to the entire fight between Earth-1 Superman and Captain Marvel that you had linked the end to, but if you could provide scans of more fights I wouldn’t complain in the slightest.
It is kind or hard to figure it out which Superman is which, unless you are a veteran DC reader.
I was actually reading the other day, that DC comics is more for veteran readers than Mervel.
It is actually harder to understand the chronology in DC than the one in Marvel.
Marvel hardly keeps track of it’s consistency and it’s chronology is so bad that it has contradictions since FF # 3!
Marvel writes with out following continuity.
DC keeps track of it.
Wait…..whaaaaaaaaaaaaa?
Where’d that come from?
Also if you mean telling the difference between Kal-El and Kal-L, not that hard unless you’re just glancing. Kal-L’s face is normally noticeably older, and then there’s always those gray streaks in his hair. His “S” is also different, them keeping the one from when Superman first appeared.
@Delta
This particular issue was when earth 2 Superman was younger.
He does not look that old, actually He looks pretty much like Kal-El.
The only way you can tell the difference is because it says earth’s 2 mightiest heroes vs captiain Marvel
Also you can see the slight difference in the Superman symbol and I believe the cape is also shorter.
When Zero approves the scans you will see what I’m talking about
Ah ok, so you’d have to look at the “S” on the chest to see which Superman it was? Makes sense.
But wouldn’t it have been quicker to post the scans individually in a separate comment with a reply to each, or better yet just emailed me the links, as opposed to waiting for Zeromage to approve the comment?
EARTH 1 SUPERMAN VS CAPTAIN MARVEL
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/SupvsCap.jpg
EARTH 1 SUPERMAN VS CAPTAIN THUNDER
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/superman276.jpg
EARTH 2 SUPERMAN VS CAPTAIN MARVEL
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/allstarsquadron36.jpg
I guess you are right. Zeromage has not approved tha comments, I guess he does not come here that often anymero because of We Do List
Darryl
I agree superman,thor and the hulk have yet to show a limit to thier strength.
If we go with feats, the one who has showed the most is Superman. Thor’s strenght feats aren’t even near those of Superman… same goes for Hulk.
pungadoo…..
First-off, what DOES your username mean anyways?
Second: I’ve said this before. I still agree that Hulk could potentially become stronger than Superman, but in regards to demonstrative strength feats, Superman has the superior feats of strength. As fell as the superior strength feats over Thor.
@Delta
This is Earth 1 PC Superman vs Captain Marvel
http://s647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/VS%20SUPERHEROES/vs%20captain%20Marvel/Pre%20crisis/
Well people always talk bad when Superman gets “defeated” by Batman with kryptonite. It is a bad showing for Superman, but really not that bad if you take into account that Batman is using Kryptonite to accomplish the feat.
I mean it makes sense Superman is getting poisoned and He is somehow becoming vulnerable.
A bad showing will be NOT having weaknesses (at leas not having EXPRESSED weaknesses) like Superman and yet get your ass handed to you by a street level character, regardless of how strong you are.
I will love to see the black panther trying to pull this one out on Superman.
Anyhow, HERE IS THE PERFECT EXAMPLE of the SO called HAND TO HAND COMBAT SPEED THE SILVER SURFER REALLY HAS.
I have said this a thousand times SS cannot hit 2000 times in a second, He can’t, He is like a jet pilot.
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/SS/handtohandcombat.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/SS/handtohandcombat2.jpg
So Black Panther used leverage to keep Silver Surfer restrained, even when stating Surfer had a vast strength advantage. That’s just embarrassing, considering even without amping, Surfer should at least be classic Rogue-level in strength.
Oh, Delta, you remember that scan of SS saying that He had nanosecond reaction time?
Well it comes from Marvel comics presents and what is happening is because there is a parasite in SS’s body that is making him having allucinations and somehow controling his body and toughts. So that nanosecond reaction time seems pretty much like an allucination.
SS has microsecond reaction time, stated on panel.
By the way on the first scan SS has all of his powers.
On the second one, Black Panther removed the SS powers
Nanosecond reaction time MY ASS
My top 20 super heroes are.
1. Black pather.
2. Captin americae.
3. Luke cage.
4. Deadpool.
5. Deardevel.
6. Ms.Marvel.
7. Psylocke.
8. Spider-woman.
9. Spider-man.
10. Batman.
11. Nick fury.
12. Black widow.
13. Green lantarn.
14. Jean gray.
15. Storm.
16. Gambit.
17. Cyclops.
18. Iron-man.
19. Electra.
20. Super-man.
Yeah. That’s called being a Marvel Fanboy
Why the hostility? He is just sharing his favorites
No hostility in that.
OK
Most Powerful Superheroes forum
R.I.P.
Nobody is talking anymore. I guess our work is done and everyone agree
This is how useless is GL VS a Speedster
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Flash/RETCON/FlashvsGLSQUAD.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Flash/RETCON/FlashvsGLSQUAD2.jpg
Delta
My username has no meaning.Its a nickname my father gave to one of his friend that I thought was funny so I used it.
Hey guys, the new list is nearly ready to move to the new site. One question for the experts:
Should Sentry still be on the list? If not, who should I replace him with. I am also considering removing Dr. Strange and the GL. My top 6 is now set in stone, but I’m looking for a bottom 4.
Zero : Captain Atom maybe. Orion.. Wonder Woman… Firestorm..
No Sentry
You may want to consider ORION to replace GL
Got Wonder Woman on there already. Here’s the order so far with no blurbs:
http://www.wedolists.com/2010/08/top-10-most-powerful-superheroes-of-all-time/
Then you must add Captain Atom. He has enought strenght to fight against Superman (which means he can beat Thor), his Energy Manipulation is above Silver Surfer and he can absorb unlimited amount of energy. Of course, Monarch was a villain but Captain Atom only had to absorb the power of 52 Captain Atoms to do that and he was able to be that powerful and he can do that anytime. One version of him was able to create a Universe in his Quantum Field and create his own version of the Spectre, Superman, etc. So yes, he deserves to be in the list too.
Thank you for not saying as strong as Superman or as durable KUDOS Zero
I think Dr. Strange is super powerful, but his lack of superspeed really kills him.
Classic Dr. Strange is powerful but not as powerful as Classic Dr. Fate. Hector Hall was even the dad of some members of the Endless.
Who’s more powerful? Strange or Nabu?
Check the order on the new site. I think I have it almost like I want it.
http://www.wedolists.com/2010/08/top-10-most-powerful-superheroes-of-all-time/
Zero : I would remove Black Bolt or Green Lantern for atleast Doctor Strange or Doctor Fate. They accomplished multiple things. I prefer Doctor Fate since his Classic version was just too powerful. The Helmet of Nabu is pretty much Nabu itself. I’ve heard that when Doctor Fate is in danger, Nabu can take control over him and fight whoever fights Fate. Nabu only needs a ”body” which Fate can provide. Both Black Bolt and Green Lantern wouldn’t affect these magicians too much. For the others, their speed and other powers are simply too much for them even if Doctor Fate could handle alot of the Superheroes in this list by himself. At full power, he can take them out. For Captain Atom, I totally agree.
The reason I am keeping Dr. Strange off is that Black Bolt could simply speed blitz him before he could have time to cast a spell.
Well, we’re going about the most powerful. Not about who can beat who. We’ve made that mistake before.
For Thor and Superman, me, Alberto and Delta have posted many scans and many informations. I just don’t know why he’s still first…
Thor will always be first, just get used to it
Thor always be first? Yeah right. It’s like if Thor side debated alot about that. They brought nothing helpful to this debate, sorry man.
Screw you Zero for being the owner of the wesite and like Thor
I like the list and I love the explination you gave for Superman so I’m cool with it.
(BUT A DRAW AT #1 WOULDN’T HURT NO ONE)
and give you one more EXTRA space 
List is done:
http://www.wedolists.com/2010/08/top-10-most-powerful-superheroes-of-all-time/
Oh, forgot. Martian Manhunter should be after Captain Marvel. The main reason why people thought he wasn’t enought powerful for the Top 5 is because is weakness is fire but it was removed when he became Fernus and now, his weakness is the fire of love.
my top ten are
1 superman
2 phenex
3 thor
4captin marvel
5 martion manhunter
6 professor x
7 batman
8 wolverine
9 flash
10 sentry
Zero I like your list.
I’m ok with Dr. Strange not being on list as long as his not Sorcerer Supreme because when he was that is more powerful then Black Bolt. Classic Dr. Strange has defeat many foe that have great speed and where more powerful then Black Bolt.
ShadowHunter only orginal Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson) was more powerful then Classic Dr. Strange. That verison probably too powerful to be on this list.
Current Dr. Fate and Current Dr. Strange aren’t equal. I’ve already told you. Nabu gets to choose when he’ll take control over Dr. Fate and he will when he feel that his human host is in danger. Who’s more powerful? Nabu or Dr. Strange?
Don’t answer Strange…lol!
For Classic Fate, of course he is too powerful for the list..!
Why am I not surprised in the least that you ignored my out-right obliteration of you, dumbass? C’mon Darryl, just admit it. You don’t know what the FUCK you’re talking about and just want to say I’m wrong. Pussy-ass bitch.
And don’t pull the maturity or have a life smoke-and-mirrors attempt. It’s lame at this point.
Delta, Alberto, Shadowhunter, I’ve been reading your comments for almost 3 months, you guys have great knowledge of comics (especially delta) and you’ve proven to many Marvel fanboys how wrong they were and still are thinking that Superman can be beaten down that easily.
and lolzz not to mention that they’ve been schooled so many times by you guys.
But I wanted to ask a question that in this topic and Thor vs Superman topic, zeromage has given thor the advantage (both by arguments and positions…..as you can see on the list) to his favorite hero and number one, after so much arguments, scans and proof etc, you guys have proven that Superman is Number One.
So why is Thor No one on the list? doesnt zeromage watches posts?
and btw Thankyou Delta, Alberto, Shaowhunter for your great posts!
I was wondering the same
Actually, I do not know if Zero watches ALL the post here. I know he has seen some of the evidence and he has changed his mind on some ocasions thanks to Delta.
I do believe He nows can concede that current Superman can defeat Thor, but on his criteria a Superman that can defeat Thor is probably too powerful for the list. Plus He is using a version of Superman that was depicted probably arround 20 years ago by John Byrne or maybe Dan Jurgens.
Only those two versions of Superman could be considered less powerful than CURRENT Thor.
Also another little secret (He is a Hammer Head, no offense Zero)
Her is the new list He made
http://www.wedolists.com/2010/08/top-10-most-powerful-superheroes-of-all-time/#comment-444
And thanks for the compliments