The Mighty Thor and Superman are the heavy-hitters of Marvel and DC respectively, each of them arguably the most powerful hero in their respective universes. So its natural that this is without question the most discussed versus debate amongst comic book fans. No other versus battle comes close to being talked about as much than this one. Try to start a “Superman vs Thor” thread on any forum and the first response is sure to be: “Not this again”.
Some of you may remember our “Top 10 Most Powerful Superheroes” list that we released a while back, where we made the controversial claim that Thor was the most powerful superhero of all time (Superman coming in at number three on that list). Months later we are still receiving emails either agreeing with us, or flaming us for that decision. Many fans cite Superman’s speed as the deciding factor in any fight between the two behemoths. Other emails claim that Thor’s magical powers would be enough to stop the man of steel in his tracks. So, the natural question is, do we still stand by our claim that Thor is more powerful than Superman? The answer is still “yes.” In this article we’ll break down the seven most common arguments and give you our take on them.
1. Super Strength
The claim has often been made that Superman is stronger than Thor. Many times on versus forums threads this claim is accepted as a given by both sides of the debate. We don’t concede that the Man of Steel is physically stronger than the god of thunder though. Thor has performed feats such as lifting the World Serpent, and once hurled the Odinsword, an enormous mystical blade, through a Celestial! Thor has also single-handedly matched the strength of the Hulk on numerous occasions (the Marvel Universe’s strongest character). Not only that but Thor is capable of entering into a state known as the “Warrior’s Madness”, which will temporarily increase his strength tenfold. Some of these feats have no true equivalent in the DC universe. We think at the very least, the two character’s physical strength is equal.
2 . Super Speed
This is Superman’s one true advantage in this fight. Superman is fast. We’re talking warp speed fast. We’re talking once around the entire planet and back before you can blink fast. You could easily make the argument that Thor would be lucky if he even saw Superman before he got pounded. But is Thor as slow as everyone seems to think? Unknown to many DC fanboys Thor can throw his hammer at the speed of light (See Thor#140, Thor#274). He can also swing it at TWICE the speed of light (Journey Into Mystery#102). In Thor -#393- it’s established that the speed of Thor’s hammer TRANSCENDS both TIME & SPACE. In addition Thor can appear anywhere across the Universe or other dimensions in just seconds (see- FF#339, and Thor#166). And, most importantly, Thor could, visually, detect objects that move at fantastic speeds (this happened when Thor was the target of artillery fire- see Invaders#33- and Avengers-#281- when he saw the speedy Hermes. And yes, I do need a life). Now if we accept that Superman can move at 99% of the speed of light, and that Thor can swing his hammer at twice the speed of light, it stands to reason that big blue is in some trouble. It’s true that Thor doesn’t use his super speed abilities often, but how many times have you seen Superman not use his super speed when he should have?
3. Stanima
Who can take more punishment, Thor or Superman? This is a difficult question. Thor has withstood a blast from Asgardian Destroyer. Superman has withstood a direct hit from a nuclear bomb. Thor has taken everything the Hulk could dish out. Thor also once took a glancing hit by a Doomsday Bomb that was capable of destroying an entire planet, and soon after that explosion he fell from space (leaving a crater miles wide) to a planet called Pangoria-see Thor#387. Thor has also taken everything that Gladiator (an arguably more powerful version of Superman) could dish out. Both characters have come back from the dead a couple of times. In my mind this one is a draw. Both characters have approximately the same stanima. The difference is Superman has weaknesses (i.e. Kryptonite, Magic, and the fact he is powerless without yellow sunlight) whereas Thor pretty much doesn’t.
4. Magic
Even the most diehard Superman fan would concede that Thor’s magical abilities would be an advantage for Thor. First, I would like to note that just because an opponent can wield magic, it in no way guarantees a win over the last son of Krypton. Superman has defeated countless magic users in the past, and so I have no illusions that just because Thor has magic powers and a magic hammer that he would automatically own Superman. That being said magic is just as lethal against Supes as kryptonite. Superman has no defense against it, and it can affect him greatly. Superman getting pounded by Mjolnir is the same as you and me getting pounded by a normal hammer. And consider the guy who’s swinging it. It’s Thor. The god of thunder. Not only that, but Thor’s lightning is magical too. Remember that just a single lightning bolt is equivalent to 15,000,000 volts of electricity and could travel over 224,000 miles an hour. The clear advantage here goes to Thor.
5. Super Powers
Before Thor inherited the Odinforce, the super powers of these two heroes were a little more even. Now there is absolutely no contest. Thor has a clear edge over Superman here. His magical hammer gives Thor the ability to control the weather, the ability to fly; energy projection and absorption; dimensional apertures; matter manipulation, as well as the most powerful of his offensive powers: the God Blast, and the Anti-Force. Superman is no push over in this department either, with the already mentioned super strength, super speed, as well as heat vision, x-ray vision, enhanced senses, and the ability to blow hurricane force winds from his mouth. But what is that compared to being able to summon an actual hurricane? Not only that but with the Odinforce Thor was then capable of feats such as reconstructing the Earth’s Moon, willing the Asgardian monster Mangog into nothingness, and by focusing his entire power into a hammer throw that even decapitated a Desak-occupied Asgardian Destroyer. Having accepted his heritage as the son of the earth goddess Gaea, he has recently been shown to be capable of opening chasms in the earth itself, and who knows what other abilities he’ll be displaying now that he’s done that.
6. Superman beat Thor in the Avengers / DC Crossover
I don’t want to spend much time on this one. Most fans of comics know how much weight we should give to crossovers. Besides, I personally have no doubt that Superman would beat Galactus in a crossover. He’s DC’s flagship character after all. Enough said on that one.
7. Thor has Thousands of Years of Combat Experience
This is a common argument used by Thor fans to claim that Thor would take down Superman. It seems fairly obvious. If I somehow gained super powers and a Viking Warrior somehow gained the exact same or nearly equivalent powers, most people would put their money on the Viking if we fought each other. Now imagine the Viking warrior was thousands of years older than me, and had been using his powers for all those thousands of years to battle trolls, giants, demons, robots, aliens, and gods, and I have only been using my powers for 20-30 years. It seems clear to me that the Viking Warrior god has a clear cut advantage over me in a fight. Again advantage Thor.
It seems obvious to me that Thor has a clear advantage over Superman in a fight. I don’t think that Thor is so powerful that there is no way that Superman could ever defeat him. But I believe that the majority of the time Thor would beat Superman in a one on one fight, assuming its not a fight to the death. If it is a fight to the death, then I think Thor would almost invariably win. So there you have it, the definitive answer to one of the most talked about and controversial debates in comic book nerdom. Brought to you by your pals at Old-Wizard.com.
Delta: I am not sure how old the issue is. But I’ll try to find out. I know it occurred AFTER the second example. (i.e. it is NOT early post crisis).
But I think you are missing the point. If Superman can lift infinite weight, why does he need Captain Marvel’s help lifting the book?
Rick, dude just because it happened after your second example doesn’t mean it isn’t early Post-CRISIS. Any idea of roughly what year it’s from? Mid-90′s? That’s the earliest I consider something not to be early Post-CRISIS.
But on Superman needing Captain Marvel to lift it, who knows? Maybe it was just to keep it balanced. Like Steve said, half of infinite weight is still infinite weight. You’ll have to prove it was NOT infinite weight. You guys are doing the same thing you’re making a huge deal over Alberto doing on the JLA/AVENGERS canon-status, only there’s actually something tangible to his arguments, as the handbook makes an indirect, but obvious reference, to it, and at least one comic has made at minimum an implication to it. You’re just grasping onto mathematical equations and that two guys lifted the book, when whackier things have happened than two guys needing to lift infinite weight, instead of making any solid arguments in an attempt to downplay the feat.
At least when I argue on the examples brought-on for Thor, I’ve got a lot more to back-up what I say than you’ve shown.
Delta, I am actually making an argument here. My point is that if Superman couldn’t lift the book himself, but could lift it with Captain Marvel, then the book’s weight CANNOT be infinite, by definition. I’m not sure if you’ve done a lot of math, but there is a mathematical induction called “Proof by Contradiction”.
1. The book has Infinite weight.
2. It takes Superman AND Captain Marvel to lift said book. (i.e. neither Superman nor Captain Marvel can lift the book alone)
3. 1/2 of infinity = infinity.
4. So we know that half of the book’s weight equals the entire book’s weight.
5. Superman can lift half of the book’s weight.
6. Superman can therefore lift the entire book’s weight.
Statement #6 contradicts statement #2.
Therefore the book cannot have infinite weight.
(not trying to be insulting in that comment)
Disagree with me all you, its your right, but don’t say that I’m not making a solid argument against the feat. I feel my argument is perfectly reasonable, whether someone agrees with it or not.
^ “all you want”
Actually Steve, I do know about that. I noticed the oddity very shortly after I saw it for the first time, but considering this is comics, that doesn’t really prove anything. If you want an explanation, think they need to balance it out. That’s just as good an explanation as any for them both lifting it. The book has infinite pages.
Delta, I disagree about the Alberto’s arguments. One, the Marvel Handbook, as previous stated, is absolutely riddled with errors. Not the least of which is getting Magneto’s real name wrong, AND misspelling it on top of that in every entry. Mixing up places of birth, relations, etc. Also, the handbook is no substitute for reference in a comic book. Also, when you say
“and at least one comic has made at minimum an implication to it.”
I think I’ve made a pretty decent argument against this statment, again, whether you buy my argument or not, that’s fine. Personally I find it convincing. To sum it up:
#1. Even if we accept that Wanda’s statement is a reference to DC’s Chaos magic, which is by no means clear, then it serves only to prove Wanda is aware of the DC universe, not that the crossover ever actually happened. The vague statement in no way refers to the actual crossover in question. In fact, Dr. Strange being unaware of the chaos magic seems to imply that no one has ever told him about the fight with the JLA, so really, if we do assume that she is talking about the DC universe, it implies Dr. Strange had no knowledge of it ever happening.
#2. Alberto is always asking what it would take to make us believe that the crossover is canon in Marvel. The reason its considered canon in DC is because DC had continued the storyline after JLA/Avengers, the “Space Egg” which made an appearance and was apparrently affecting a lot of things… Something like that would 100% convince me of the canon of JLA/Avengers in Marvel. I’m not closedminded on this topic at all. I just need to see REAL evidence.
#3. Albero has never provided the link to show this online statement by the Marvel Editor, but even if he does, it will not convince me either. Statements by writers and editors outside of comics themselves mean nothing to me in terms of what is canon. If they did, we’d have to constantly watch for every interview, read every forum post by these guys, and write down every word they say to keep track of what is or is not canon.
You think the crossover is canon. Fine. I happen to not think so. To say I am not basing it on any solid reasoning is a little one-sided IMO. I have made no such insult to you or Alberto.
Its true, this is comic books, where things are always a little wacky, but we have to ask, does it make more sense with the rest of Superman’s history that Superman lifted infinite weight or not? It obviously is more in line with his history that he can’t lift INFINITE weight. Superman has struggled lifting things, and pushing things before. (I don’t think I need to give examples). He has fought beings while not holding back (which by definition means that he would be punching with infinite force if he had infinite strength) yet the beings he punched survived INFINITE FORCE. If you ask me it makes no sense that Superman has infinite strength.
Here’s probably the stronest point against Superman lifting infinite weight: The writer of that comic book obviously had Captain Marvel help Superman for a reason. If he had Superman lift infinite weight all by himself it would have been stupid. I would have shown without a doubt Superman had infintie strength. I think we can assume the writer didnt want to go that far out on a limb. I think its safe to say that the feat does not mean SUperman can lift infinite weight by himself. Its a feat of SUperman/MArvel combined. I don’t think its much of a Superman feat in and of itself.
Steve’s arguments make perfect sense to me. I think the key is when he says that it would be impossible to cross check every comment, interview and statement by every editor and writer of comic books outside of the actual comics. If they want to make something canon, make it canon in the comics, not on an internet forum.
OMG when is this debate over canon going to end?!
Steve, first a few problems with the JLA/AVENGERS argument.
The problem is, at first everybody arguing for the Thor side was simply saying it’s not canon, and saying Marvel’s NEVER referenced it. Now there’s actually evidence to it. So what do people do? Simply state it’s wrong. Yet almost nobody(you’d be one of the few) has conceded that there’s something to point to it being canon, and Marvel themselves has actually made a specific reference to it, regardless of it being in the handbook or not.
On the infinite weight thing, there’s quite a few problems with your argument.
One is the fact that you’re pointing towards Superman’s history as if he’s limited to that. I pointed-out earlier that even without explicit power-ups, Superman gets more powerful over time. I explained an example of him just getting more powerful, then of him after an out-right power-up. So just because he’s struggled with weights in the past, doesn’t mean he’d struggle with them now.
Another problem is I’m not saying Superman’s always going to do stuff like this. But it’s still something he’s capable of doing, and I don’t think anyone other than him and Captain Marvel, at least short of Skyfathers, has done this before.
But on what you say is probably the strongest point against Superman lifting infinite weight, aren’t you doing what several, including I believe yourself, have done and used largely your own opinion and speculation, based on what you think the writer meant to do? Really, what’s been shown is Superman lifting half of a book with infinite mass, and like you said, half of infinite is still infinite.
Here’s another example of whacky things in comics. In JLA/SPECTRE: SOUL WARS, Superman and Wonder Woman are only able to slow-down the Spectre’s body from falling. Spectre narrates that they’re two of the mightiest beings in all the universes, but that his body is made of a “cosmic consciousness” that has the “weight of eternity. And eternity…..is heavy.” So, Superman and Wonder Woman can only slow-down his/it’s body. Yet it doesn’t at all effect the Moon. Superman has thrown a spaceship the size of a small moon with ease when much weaker than he is now(or even when they slowed-down the Spectre) and stopped the Moon from falling out of orbit from “geometrically increasing force.” Also, when Superman had serious Kryptonite poisoning in his body, he nearly knocked the Moon out of orbit by simply pounding on it. So it seems Superman’s well capable of moving the Moon on his own, even during this point in time. In terms of team effort, Superman and seven others moved the Moon back into it’s proper orbit, AFTER it had been surrounded with so much mass that it was being dragged out of orbit. In fact, it looked like the Moon had tripled in size. And then Superman, Wonder Woman and Green Lantern had moved the Moon through Earth’s gravity at near-lightspeed. So this more than indicates that either Superman or Wonder Woman could move the Moon. Yet the two of them together only manage to slow-down something with the “weight of eternity.” Very vague, but does not seem to be quantifiable. Yet it doesn’t move the moon out of orbit.
If I were to take an approach like your’s, then it would really fuck-up. Superman and Wonder Woman have demonstrated more than enough strength to move the Moon, yet they couldn’t stop the Spectre’s body from falling. But wait a minute!! The Spectre’s body didn’t even mess with the Moon’s orbit, so obviously it couldn’t have been that heavy, so thus Superman and Wonder Woman must not be able to move the Moon, and the “weight of Eternity” isn’t that heavy.
This makes me wonder what you think of Thor throwing the Odin Sword through that Celestial, Steve. Thor had never shown before to even be able to MATCH the Destroyer in strength, even when the Destroyer was animated by a normal human being. And yet the Destroyer animated by Odin and almost all of Asgard did what to a Celestial?
Yeah Pete, get ready to be educated.
You’d have to prove Thor could drain Superman. Superman has drained himself, and on a universe-destroying level, so you’d have to prove that Superman couldn’t use this to counter Thor draining Superman. Assuming he would know to do this.
So what that Superman’s been cut a few times by mystical weapons? Mjolnir’s a BLUNT object, and Superman’s shrugged off so many powerful attacks from mystical opponents. How about you actually bring-up examples of BLUNT force instead of cutting?
And Superman won’t survive the Godblast? Prove it. Superman’s withstood incredibly powerful explosions, shrugged-off MYSTICAL energy blasts from Skyfather-level opponents, and was in pretty good shape after being hit with a massive energy blast from Imperiex Prime himself, who showed to be above Galactus.
And WHERE the fight takes place? What proof do you have that Superman needs to breath? Multiple times has shown questionable at best if he even needs to breath since his first power-up. And Superman’s shown very impressive feats while under a red sun. Even as early back as SUPERMAN(Volume Two) #18, Superman was under a red sun and still had strength so great, that if he breathed too hard, his heart pounded too fast, or he moved too quickly, he’d have torn-open a suit made for combat in space that was protecting him from the Kryptonite(back when it was a serious threat to him). In ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN #480, before his first power-up, he had been THROWN into the outer-layers of the sun AFTER Eradicator had turned it red, TWICE. He resisted it’s gravitational pull even though it was weakening him both times he was thrown, shook-off crashing onto Mercury, and still held his own hand-to-hand against the Eradicator. In SUPERMAN(Volume Two) #167 he moved Krypton, though with assistance, under a red sun, after using a massive amount of Heat Vision. Krypton is 16 times the Earth’s size. In SUPERMAN(Volume Two) #215 he fights General Zod under a red sun, and their fight tears apart the planet they’re on. And in INFINITE CRISIS #7, Superman exerts himself under a red sun flying faster-than-light, ends-up around most of the universe’s Kryptonite, and STILL shrugs-off a punch from Superboy Prime, who’s so strong that he punched his way out of a dimension and changed time as a side-effect. And Superboy Prime was not effected by the Kryptonite(since he was a Kryptonian from another universe, New Earth Kryptonite doesn’t effect him), but he hadn’t been exerting himself like Superman had. And then they flew THROUGH the red sun, and he crashed onto a planet. Then endured Heat Vision from Superboy Prime trying to kill him. Then in ACTION COMICS #847, Superman again exerts himself under a red sun, flying faster than light. Then he gets weakened by multiple energy beams containing red solar energy(he lets them hit him to protect a bomb), and even after that, STILL withstands part of an explosion equal to about 50 supernovas, and isn’t even stunned. So much for the fight being under a red sun.
And on Superman using his speed, funny how Thor doesn’t use the stuff people argue for him more than 99% of the time, and half the examples used Superman can potentially or has countered. Thing is, the Thor side can’t really put a legitimate argument that Thor could take a full-blown speed-blitz from Superman, since almost all of their examples don’t hold-up to scrutiny. When Superman HAS done an out-right speed-blitz, I’ve only seen Speed Force users keep-up. And Superman’s speed-blitzed those demonstratively faster than light.
And you’re actually trying to use Thor swinging Mjolnir twice the speed of light against Superman? Superman has demonstrated speed-blitzing speed at least three times that. Actually I’d think it’d be faster. In ACTION COMICS #854, Superman out-races and blocks/deflects multiple radiation beams so quickly, it appears to he blocks/deflects at least six simultaneously. That’s a LOT faster than twice lightspeed. Not to mention he’s flown more than two lightYEARS in seconds. Thor being able to see fast-moving people doesn’t prove he can keep-up with Superman, as no one has provided any examples to show how fast the guy was.
And you’re wrong on the lightning thing. There’s no proof Thor’s lightning moves anywhere beyond the normal speed of lightning. Captain Marvel’s “lightning” is a lot faster than Thor’s. It’s not even lightning, actually, it just takes the form and some properties of it. But it’s shown to be much more than lightning. One time, Flash saw the “lightning” going to hit Billy Batson. He was not aware that Billy was Captain Marvel. Flash out-races the lightning, moving at a much faster speed, and took Billy to safety. At least he would have had it been an actual bolt of lightning. The Shazam bolt changed direction, followed Flash, caught-up to them and still hit Billy, turning him into Captain Marvel. So your argument proves nothing. It gets even worse considering about 20 or so years ago, quite a while before Superman’s first power-up, he actually states in SUPERMAN(Volume Two) #39, SUPERMAN(Volume Two) #39: Superman states, “At SUPER-SPEED, the lightning appears to be traveling in SLOW-MOTION to me–.” He then out-races and out-maneuvers it. He’s become FAR faster than this since.
Oh and Gladiator isn’t even as fast as Superman. Far as I’m aware, Gladiator’s combat speed is limited to supersonic. Lightning falls into supersonic as well, but it’s over 150 times as fast as sound. And people make such a big deal over Gladiator allegedly being faster than Superman, because he can fly at 100 times lightspeed. Superman’s flown from about 500 times lightspeed, to a little over 10,000 times lightspeed, as well as even more impressive examples. Like flying more than 2 and a half lightyears in seconds like I mentioned before. So, again, you bringing-up Gladiator being hit by Thor’s lightning proves…..NOTHING!! Great job.
And the 100 tons thing is a classification of strength that I believe started with the Marvel handbooks, though it’s generally used as a strength class instead of literal limit of strength, by both writers and comic debaters. He likely misunderstood it. But so what that Thor lifted the Midgard Serpent? It was big enough to COIL the Earth, not as big as the Earth. Like I mentioned before, Superman moved Krypton under a red sun. And yeah he had help, but he had depleted energy to power that help, it was UNDER a red sun, and he was moving a planet a whole lot bigger than Earth, even if the Midgard Serpent was as big as the Earth. Superman also powered the “endless milwheels” of Maggeddon, powering clockwork-like gear through strength for a machine much larger than the Earth/Moon system. Superman’s matched strength with Doomsday, which is a whole lot more impressive than matching strength with Hulk. And Superman has actually lifted infinite weight, so he’s demonstrated superior strength to Hulk. Sure, Hulk could potentially become stronger than Superman, but that’s not going to work well here.
I love how the Thor side uses examples that don’t really prove their arguments for magick against Superman. For one, Mjolnir’s a BLUNT object, not a cutting object. And that same weapon Wonder Woman cut Superman’s throat with? She’s used it to decapitate the son of Ares, and Ares was portrayed as Skyfather-level. How do you know that same weapon wouldn’t cut Thor? And if you’re thinking of the sword from KINGDOM COME, well actually that’s a different version of Superman, even in the DC Universe after 52. KC Superman was even a member of the JSA. But anyways, if you’re referring to the sword I’m thinking of, it could cut an electron off it’s parent atom, and had penetrated THE KINGDOM era Gog, who was insanely strong and durable, and not only showed no particular weakness against magick(in fact he was shrugging off mystical attacks from multiple mages and mystical weapon wielders hitting him at once), but was even partially powered by magick. So again, that proves nothing that Superman was cut by a sword that cut someone powered partially by magick and was more durable than Thor.
And so what that Thor’s lightning has KOed Gladiator. Gladiator survived a supernova? He survived PART of a supernova, and only one writer portrayed him as that powerful over 20 years ago. Before Superman’s first power-up, he survived the destruction of a Sun-Eater, while in it’s CORE. This is a whole lot more powerful than a supernova. In ACTION COMICS #867 he also survived an actual supernova when a lot closer than Gladiator was. Then I gave you that example of Superman taking part of that explosion equal to FIFTY supernovas after having exerted himself under a red sun AND been weakened by being hit by multiple energy blasts containing red solar energy.
On the Godblast, well didn’t it defeat a weakened Galactus? If it was a fully fed Galactus, you’d have an argument. But considering Galactus was weakened, I wouldn’t be surprised if Superman wasn’t stopped by the Godblast considering the examples I’ve given.
And freeze breath wouldn’t hurt Thor, though it certainly can be used to restrain him, even if temporarily. It’s temporarily immobilized Wonder Woman, Darkseid(who’s stronger than Thor) and Bizarro(who’s possibly stronger than Superman, or at least was at one point, and you concede that Superman’s stronger than Thor). So, not a deal-breaker, but certainly useful. ESPECIALLY if Superman exploits his speed advantage. Heat Vision’s going to hurt Thor, Thor might block it, but I’ve seen him get hit plenty of times. In fact, I’ve seen Superman exploit his speed advantage more times than I’ve seen Thor use Mjolnir to block incoming energy attacks. Plus, if the two grapple, how will Thor actually block it?
And Superman’s also more durable than Thor. And in all reality, he’s demonstrated superior fighting skill to Thor. But I’ll go on that later.
As to Thor’s hundreds of other powers, um he doesn’t have them. When you exaggerate things THAT much it just makes you look stupid. Unless you REALLY think that. Plus your ignorance of Superman further ruins your argument. Thor teleporting Superman into a black hole? Not only something I’ve never seen him do, but so fucking what? Superman’s been fine in black holes since his first power-up. In ACTION COMICS #696(though the feat actually ends in SUPERMAN: THE MAN OF STEEL #31) Superman flies through a wormhole, two black holes connected together. And he’s only become more durable since. In JLA/JSA: VIRTUE & VICE, Superman goes through a black hole. Some argue that Sentinel helped, or could have helped, him through, but considering he went through a wormhole with no help, this seems like a desperate argument. Then SUPERMAN(Volume Two) #191 he’s fine in a “double black hole” and escapes it. So a black hole is going to do…..what? Red sun/remains of Krypton/mountain of Kryptonite? What good’s that going to do when Superman shrugged-off a blow from Superboy Prime while under a red sun and surrounded by a literal planet’s worth of Kryptonite? Superman being worn from days of fighting/torture, put on his hands and knees in powdered Kryptonite, then shrugging off a nuclear explosion that destroyed most of an island isn’t even an impressive feat for Superman dealing with Kryptonite, now. Plus, how does Thor KNOW about Kryptonite, even if it’d be a big deal? The red sun thing I can concede is a possibility, but only a SLIGHT one they could encounter since it’d be very very unlikely for Thor to teleport him or them somewhere else. But it’s not even a big deal. Godblast? Your only decent argument, but not good enough. Not to mention, doesn’t Thor need some time to get it ready? Superman won’t just stand there. Mystical lightning? From someone who shrugged off the “lightning” from Shazam, a Skyfather-level mage? Nope, and that’s just that ONE example. Draining energy is something rarely used by Thor, much more rarely than Superman exploiting his speed, and something Superman very well can counter. Using his remaining Odin-Force? His only really good chance, but why exactly would he do this in a typical fight? I can argue Superman sun-dipping and having an even more insane strength and durability advantage.
And Pete, while Superman hasn’t done things to the extant that Ernst is describing, you’re completely wrong that he hasn’t abused his speed advantage against anyone. For one, Doomsday has super speed himself, though not to the degree of Superman. Though at the TIME they first fought, he might well have been faster than Superman, as due to Flash’s decrease in speed(long story why) at the time, Superman kept relative to close, but not as fast, as Flash most of the time. Doomsday was stated to be faster than Flash, and at the time it was actually possible. He was out-pacing others with at least some super speed like Martian Manhunter(as Bloodwynd) and Maxima, and Superman specifically stated he needed to push the pace to keep-up with Doomsday. And Doomsday’s shown to be much faster than I’ve ever seen Thor to actually be, in terms of combat speed, or anybody could actually prove. And Superman did out-right speed-blitz Doomsday on at least one occasion, and Doomsday couldn’t do a damn thing about it. He’s also overwhelmed Cyborg-Superman, Maxima, Wonder Woman, General Zod and Ursa(at the same time) and another Kryptonian, all with at least some degree of super speed. Some of them shown to be faster than Thor.
And it seems like you’re underrating Superman’s durability. Like I said, he’s shrugged-off energy blasts, including mystical energy blasts, from Skyfather-level opponents. His showings against these types of energy blasts has ranged from enduring them(in pain but not even slowed down) when weaker to literally walking through them more recently. Thor’s survived a blast that would destroy a planet? Superman’s survived blasts from planet-destroying weapons. And he’s survived explosions capable of destroying at least a SOLAR SYSTEM, including while not only UNDER a red sun(AND had exerted himself) but hit with concentrated red solar energy. He survived a force that actually sent him millions of years into the past. He survived punches that shattered the boundaries of space and time. He took a punch from a Pre-CRISIS Kryptonian while under a red sun and surrounded by quintillions of tons of Kryptonite. Pre-CRISIS Superman(both as Superman and Superboy) did shit like alter the future with his punches, towed an entire galaxy and literally juggled planets. Like mentioned earlier, he took a blast from Imperiex Prime, and he wasn’t a short blast, it was quite extended.
Like I said, teleporting Superman into a black hole will do nothing. You’d have to prove he could drain Superman, not to mention your whole “speed of thought” thing sucks. You are aware that the speed of thought is under the speed of sound, right? And Superman and others in DC are established as much faster than thought, right? Hell, people make such a big deal about Professor X and others in the X-Men taking down Superman or Flash or whoever because of telepathy. When not only has DC established that Superman and others are much faster than thought, but even Marvel has shown telepaths to have trouble with those who are faster than normal. Professor X had trouble communicating with Quicksilver in an issue of X-Men simply because Quicksilver’s brain processes faster than a normal human’s. And Quicksilver is SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOW compared to Superman.
But on the Thor doing something you haven’t seen him done argument, aren’t you already doing that? Where has Thor drained someone’s energy when he doesn’t know they’ve got energy to drain? Hell, that would’ve been useful at least ONCE against Hulk. Where’s Thor using soul drain against non-mystical opponents? When has he teleported opponents into a black hole? With the exception of a fight with Juggernaut, when has he used the Godblast against opponents short of Skyfathers or Entities? You’re assuming Thor’ll do a lot of things he wouldn’t, and then make the claim you can use that argument too?
As for the Hulk thing, um, you’re wrong, actually. Hulk isn’t stronger than Superman. He’s potentially stronger. How strong Hulk actually is depends on the incarnation and situation. Hulk’s strength is NOT infinite, it’s POTENTIALLY infinite. But really, his strength is all over the place.
But another issue is the fact that Superman has demonstratively shown superior strength feats compared to Hulk. Hulk didn’t really contain a black hole, Superman did indeed, then threw it later. People make a deal out of Hulk having held together continental plates. I pointed-out Superman powering Maggeddon before. Superman slowed-down “the weight of eternity.” Superman LIFTED infinite weight, which I see later gets argued, so I’ll go into detail later. Superman even shattered the fabric of reality in his fight with Kal-L.
And Superman having matched Doomsday is a lot better an argument than Thor matching Hulk. Doomsday starts-off a lot stronger than a baseline Hulk. Hulk’s varied, but two of the three versions of Hulk Thor has faced the most have started-out as weaker than Thing. Doomsday ALSO has a dynamic strength, so Doomsday’s strength also increases as a fight goes on. So yeah, since Doomsday starts-off stronger than Thor(you concede Superman’s stronger than Thor, and Doomsday’s been stronger than Superman) AND gets stronger as the fight’ll go on, that’s a much better measurement than Thor matching Hulk.
But you didn’t prove that we’ve seen Thor take punches from someone stronger than Superman. You only proved that he’s taken punches from someone potentially stronger than Superman. But going by that argument, it’s way stronger for Thor. Not only has Superman taken punches from opponents stronger than Thor, but he’s taken punches from opponents stronger than himself. Captain Marvel and Black Adam are stronger than Thor, and Superman’s taken punches from them and been fine more often than not. When Superman was weakened from weeks of yellow solar radiation deprivation, he still fought Mongul to a knock-out. Due to Superman’s weakened state, Mongul would have been stronger than Superman, as Mongul at least rivaled a peak of power Superman, strength-wise, during this period and occasionally showed to be stronger. So at less than peak power, Superman defeated someone at least about as strong as Thor, and even at peak power power, Superman is far less durable then than he now. Before Superman’s first power-up, he fought two Pocketverse Kryptonians, Superboy and Quex-Ul, who both showed to be near Pre-CRISIS level. Superman did pretty well against Superboy, though did get smacked around by Quex-Ul, but wasn’t seriously injured. And Quex-Ul was not only stronger than Superboy, but a trained and experienced solider. Superman’s faced Doomsday multiple times, and Doomsday’s base strength was at least roughly equal to Superman, even during the DEATH OF SUPERMAN storyline. After Doomsday came back from the dead, more powerful than before, he was a good deal stronger than Superman to start, AFTER Superman’s first power-up. Then Superman’s taken punches from KC Superman, who’s shown to be stronger than Superman, at least in their first fight. And he’s faced Bizzaro, who’s not only stronger than Thor, but at one point was implied to be stronger than Superman. And there’s even more examples I could pull-up.
And I actually haven’t seen any brought-up examples of Thor having moved a planet, though some equivalent feats. But Superman’s are more impressive. Big deal though that Thor FOUGHT a planet. So has Superman!! Two if you include Warworld, not just the cannibal planet. Hell, Superman’s fought essentially extra large living stars at least twice and won. Guess that more than matches and exceeds the Ego argument.
On Thor facing super-fast opponents, half of it doesn’t cut it. Hyperion? Isn’t he not even supersonic in FLIGHT, and slower than that for actual combat speed? Like I showed earlier, Superman’s faster than Gladiator. Plus not one single fight between Thor and Gladiator has actually shown Gladiator speed-blitzing, save when that time dilation actually allowed Thor to match Gladiator’s speed. And Silver Surfer and other Heralds? Where have they actually performed COMBAT speed? The scan that keeps getting thrown around doesn’t even show or SAY Surfer’s fighting, just that he’s traveling around the Earth really really fast. Same with the other Heralds, never seen them actually fight at super speed. Thor saw Hermes? What examples are there to actually give some kind of idea as to how fast Hermes actually is? At least with those who possess the speed of gods of speed that Superman’s faced actually do have feats to show how fast they are. And the fact that Superman can keep-up with and see Flash out-performs any examples for Thor’s speed, not to mention no one has actually proven that anybody speedy Thor’s dealt with fights as fast as Superman very well can AND has. And like shown before, Superman’s a whole lot faster than twice the speed of light. Even in regards to combat speed.
And what proof do you have of Thor being able to drain Superman faster than he could react, assuming Superman couldn’t counter this? Superman decides to use his speed, what proof do you have he can’t just do it quickly? Superman thinks far faster than a normal human, it’s been shown before he can quickly change his speed of perception instantly. And thought is far slower than even Superman’s decent speed feats.
Quite funny though that you state Alberto hasn’t read many comics, and yet you think Thor teleporting Superman into a black hole is going to stop Superman. I’ll excuse the Kryptonite and red sun arguments, partially, as the Thor side is typically rather ignorant on this, but a black hole? You SHOULD know better than that, if you’re going to accuse someone of not reading comics. Though of course you also act like Thor regularly teleports people to red suns, into black holes and Kryptonite-rich areas on a regular basis even before you brought-up the whole, “I can argue too that Thor can do things I haven’t seen him do” to try to detract from someone’s argument.
On Superman fighting Valor, Superman might have stated Valor was stronger than him, but it certainly didn’t show-up. When Superman actually was pretty reliant on air, Lar Gand knocks the air out of Superman’s lungs in space, and despite the fact that Superman’s losing consciousness, he still knocks Valor the fuck out. Plus, Superman’s become a LOT more powerful since this fight. He didn’t even have his first power-up!!
And again with you claiming Hulk has infinite strength!! Hulk has the POTENTIAL for infinite strength. But has he actually demonstrated it? No, I’ve never heard of him demonstrating this alleged infinite strength. And like I said before, Hulk’s strength varies not only by incarnation, but by the situation. Thing’s had some showings against Savage Hulk that’re better than some of Thor’s showings against Savage Hulk. Are you going to say Thing’s got good odds of knocking-out Superman?
And Daxamites might have been listed as stronger than Kryptonians, but this has not been demonstrated as of late and writers don’t treat it like that anymore. And Superman’s not your typical Kryptonian, anyways.
And the only actual time I’ve seen Captain Marvel knock Superman out, it was with a sucker-punch, Captain Marvel amping his strength, AND using mystical energy. So since Captain Marvel made himself stronger than Superman temporarily, Superman was NOT prepared for it, AND had the magick thing, that doesn’t prove much of anything. You think you’d be conscious after someone with roughly your strength took PCP and sucker-punched you with brass knuckles? No, you wouldn’t. And too bad for your argument that Captain Marvel is also stronger than Thor, even without further boosting his strength.
As to the magick thing, at best it hurts Superman a bit more than equivalent force from a non-mystical source. I don’t know how many times I’ve stated this, but back when Superman was much less powerful early Post-CRISIS, and nukes could actually hurt him, twice he took mystical energy equivalent to nuclear detonations. And how did he end-up? Pretty similar to how he ended-up the first couple times he took a nuke. As his durability’s increased, so has the impressiveness of his enduring mystical attacks. As I gave examples earlier.
And you show further ignorance by making claims of Superman’s alleged defeat in several of the examples you gave.
SUPERMAN(Volume Two) #75? Superman’s the one still breathing, albeit temporarily, while it’s Doomsday who’s dead first. How is it Superman lost there if HE killed Doomsday after the final blow, and when Superman no longer had the will to hold on after being assured Doomsday was dead, he succumbed to his injuries?
BATMAN: THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS #4? LAMO!! Yeah, for one, it’s not in continuity. Two, Batman just hurts a holding-back Superman, and Batman states that he’s only effecting Superman to the degree he is because of the nuke that hit Superman that Batman had NOTHING to do with, and Batman doesn’t even WIN the fight, despite what people claim. I’ve read the fight, and Batman doesn’t even fucking win!! Superman doesn’t even really fight back and it’s HIM who’s still standing at the end.
KINGDOM COME #4? Where SUPERMAN beats Captain Marvel? huh I thought Superman enduring the fight, giving as good as he got hand-to-hand, matching Marvel’s speed, and turning him into Billy Batson and keeping him from turning back into Captain Marvel was an actual WIN for Superman, not Captain Marvel. Nowhere was Superman knocked-out or incapacitated, and it was Superman who forced Billy to stop fighting.
Zod? You must be more specific. I do know of a win and I guess you could say a technical win for the Russian Zod, but if you’re going to be making claims for Superman losing, you must be a bit more specific when talking Zod.
Conduit? Again, need to be more specific. None of the fights I’ve seen of the two have had Conduit actually win, just hurt Superman but no conclusive end.
Gog? I might know what you’re talking about. Gog has been a legit example.
Martian Manhunter/Fernus? I actually can’t think of an actual win for Martian Manhunter, though I know Fernus, who allegedly is completely different from J’onn, was owning the JLA. Of course that argument comes from the MARVEL side trying to downplay Martian Manhunter, but oh well. But again, I can’t actually think of a win for MARTIAN MANHUNTER, though there very well could be one or two.
Parallax during ZERO HOUR? Questionable. Superman didn’t seem to be knocked-out. Knocked down? Yeah. Parallax could’ve finished the fight, but it remains inconclusive. Of course for Superman not to be knocked-out from a sucker-punch by someone who just destroyed reality through-out all time and later goes on to incapacitate The Spectre is actually a pretty good showing for Superman.
Hal Jordan? You mean as a regular Green Lantern? I’ve heard this argument, but half the scans don’t actually show him winning, and the only one that showed Hal Jordan still up and Superman(as well as others) down was just that. Of them down. Not saying Hal could not have beaten Superman, but that sure as fuck doesn’t prove a damn thing. How do we know it was even Hal who did it?
Dominus? Hey, you CAN bring-up more than one legitimate example. So far a few.
Darkseid? Actually I’m unsure of Darkseid having any wins in a straight-up fight. The only one that could be considered a win was not only NOT a straight-up fight, but Superman then goes to make Darkseid look like a chump panels later.
Kryptonite Man? Are you even aware that Kryptonite Man was retconned after CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, and only recently was brought back into continuity? Conduit was likely made as a replacement for Kryptonite Man. So the fact that you said late 80′s or early 90′s shows you to be the one who doesn’t read many comics and looks-up references from other places.
You’re claiming Captain Marvel almost always knocks-out Superman when they meet? Fuck no. He’s only accomplished this once to my knowledge. And Superman’s won at least two times conclusively(three if you count KINGDOM COME, though that’s a different Superman), and has one fight that could be considered a draw, but Superman was showing to be the superior of the two…..when worn from fighting entire teams of opponents before hand AND being effected by Kryptonite to an unknown degree against a FRESH Captain Marvel who starts the fight off with a sucker-shot. So much for Captain Marvel almost always knocking Superman out.
Amazo is a legit example, as he, well, has the power of the entire JLA. One time, Amazo just kept becoming more powerful as more reserve and former JLA members came in to help. Funny how Superman beat Amazo that time. He disbanded the JLA. With no JLA, Amazo had no one to copy the powers of.
If you’re talking about Darkseid blasting Superman during OUR WORLDS AT WAR before Darkseid had his meeting with President Luthor, all that did was knock him back and didn’t even scratch him. Yeah, great example there.
You couldn’t keep going, could you? You weren’t even right on at LEAST half of your examples, and the ones you either were or might have been right on, you couldn’t give any actual issue references or examples.
Doug…..
LMAO So Thor owning Iron Man is impressive? What makes you think Superman couldn’t do the same? He wouldn’t even have to hold back. Being a good deal superior to Captain Marvel in SUPERMAN/BATMAN #4 alone is more impressive than owning Iron Man, but then you take into account that Superman was worn from fighting entire teams previously, and effected by Kryptonite to an unknown degree and that’s a lot more impressive. And Thor doesn’t have much Odin-Force left, doubt he’ll use it unless there’s desperate circumstances. And such a weak against magick Superman to still show superior to Captain Marvel while effected by Kryptonite. Or literally walking through a Skyfather-level being’s MYSTICAL energy blast. Or shrugging-off energy beams from Shazam. Or a number of other examples. And Thor’s experience? He shows it’s honed his skills to the razor-sharp edge of near-mediocrity.
Delta, I know what you’re saying. It is definitely my opinion when talking about the writer’s intent, yet, sometimes this is all we have to go on. I think in this case its a pretty reasonable assumption. Imagine what readers would say if a writer came out and said on panel “Superman by himself lifts an object with infinite weight!” (Or something to that effect). People would just laugh at the ridiculousness of it. When you IMPLY it being infinite weight, and then have Captain Marvel help out, well that seems a little more reasonable (yet still poorly thought out). What’s your opinion on this matter? Do you believe Superman has no strength limit? Do you believe he can lift infinite weight?
I realize Superman’s powers have increased over time, but, correct me if I’m wrong, even recently he hasn’t been shown to be INFINITELY strong. (Thor’s powers have also considerably increased over time as well. Reconstructing the moon without the Odin force -granted he had the odin force at the time, but stated he wasn’t using it-, having control over the earth …not an Odin force power, but heritage of his mother gaea, increased strength and especially increased durability. he is surviving bigger and bigger attacks lately).
Oh the Destroyer example, Thor with the Odin Force fucked up the destroyer. But yeah, regular Thor has had trouble with him (although he always defeats it one way or the other in the end).
Oh and about the Handbook thing. Yeah, Marvel has referenced it in the handbook. But again, we can’t take that as any sort of evidence for it being canon, IMO anyway. Otherwise, we start treading a slippery slope. If handbooks are canon, are Marvel Enclopedias? Cartoons? Movies? Just because its in something labeled “MARVEL” doesn’t mean it influences canon.
Gotta run. Talk to you later.
Blue Lantern…..
I cannot check your scans for your first post, but your second and third…..
How in the FUCK does that scan of Surfer talking down Gladiator prove anything? I can’t check it now, but I did take a peek earlier, and I’ve seen it before. I saw nothing indicating Surfer sensed Gladiator’s weakness. Just states he KNOWS the wavelength of radiation. What proof do you have that Surfer didn’t encounter that information from elsewhere? And turning Superman’s costume into Kryptonite? Do you REALLY THINK that’s going to stop Superman? Like mentioned before, Superman EXERTING himself under a red sun flying faster than light, being exposed to literally a planet’s worth of Kryptonite, still didn’t allow Superboy Prime(who would not have been effected by the Kryptonite, and was not previously exerting himself under the red sun) to knock Superman out. In a potential future, when Superman had “nano-tech poisons” put into his body, that converted his solar energy reserves into Kryptonite, so that pretty much double-weakened him as his solar energy’s being replaced with Kryptonite, he was thrown from orbit with such force that it caused so much dust, water vapor, and disasters that it created the equivalent of nuclear winter. So he hit the ground with enough force equal to cause the results of an entire nuclear war. Didn’t kill him. So turning his costume into Kryptonite? Ain’t gonna cut it.
But making a deal out of Superman VS Amazo? Thor would get his ass handed to him by most showings of Amazo. You think Amazo could take-on the entire Big-7 JLA and win, let alone someone with their combined powers and weapons?
Steve…..
Well, going by the writer’s intent, what are you going to say about Superman and Wonder Woman only managing to slow-down the Spectre’s falling body? I established the two are individually capable of moving the Moon, yet they can’t stop the descent of the “weight of eternity” which doesn’t even move the Moon.
And yeah, speculation and opinion is often what to go on, but the fact of the matter is the book has infinite mass. Like I said, weird things that don’t make sense happen in comics a lot. How Flash is able to take the punishment he does uninjured with his speed kicked in and yet is hurt by far lesser things when moving at normal speed is not established, nor does it make sense. Zoom shouldn’t be hitting harder than Superman, according to Wonder Woman, since he’s not actually MOVING fast. Time is moving slower to him, so he’s “faster” than everyone else. Ect.
And on Superman having infinite strength? They are pushing him more and more towards the Silver Age levels. Does he have infinite strength? I wouldn’t say he’s always capable of lifting infinite weight, but I do take that into account as one of his feats. One of the things that they’ve been defining off and on over the years that some writers have continued, some don’t, is he’s more limited by his mind than anything else. Was shown all the way during Byrne-era, and really shown during the Mongul Jr. training sessions. One example from that was he was able to see into another galaxy, simply because he believed he could and stopped thinking he couldn’t. So he potentially can have infinite strength.
Also, on Superman’s powers increasing over the years, it is a bit different than your examples for Thor. He gained a new power due to his heritage, and his powers increased to some extent after having gotten the Odin-Force. Superman though, has shown to get more powerful without even getting an out-right power-up, as I showed before. And Superman’s had multiple out-right power-ups. The first one was after he came back from the dead the first time. He was nearly powerless, and when Cyborg-Superman tried to kill him with Kryptonite, Eradicator had converted it into an energy that not only repowered Superman, but increased it. And then there’s been other out-right power-ups as well. The “weight of eternity” thing certainly seems comparable to “infinite weight” and he had done that before at least one power-up.
On the Destroyer thing, either you misunderstood me or were in a hurry. What I meant was classic Thor has always failed to even match Destroyer’s strength, even when Destroyer was animated by only normal humans. Sometimes BADLY out-matched in strength. And yet, Thor was able to throw the Odin Sword through a Celestial, and the Destroyer animated by Odin and almost all of Asgard wasn’t able to even scratch the Destroyer. That’s actually a lot worse than the contradictions of Superman lifting infinite weight you showed for your argument. So what do you think of that particular instance?
Delta, you can’t PROVE the book has infinite mass. If each page is infinitesimal, then the book’s weight might not even equal 1 pound, never mind infinite weight. What don’t you understand about the fact that adding infinite numbers doesn’t necessarily equal an infinite sum? Are you too stupid to comprehend this concept? It is never EXPLICITLY said that the book has infinite weight. So give it up. Sorry.
“if each page has infinitesimal weight” I should have said.
Face facts, kid. Steve and I have torn your argument to shreds.
1. Steve has pointed out that assuming the book has infinite weight leads to a flat out contradiction.
2. We have no on panel statement that the book’s weight is infinite, only that it has infinite pages.
3. Arguable, I have an infinite number of subatomic particles in my body (especially if we consider objects smaller than quarks). Do I have infinite weight?
You fail.
Even IF the weight is inifnite, Superman COULDN’T lift it alone. He needed help. i.e. Superman can’t lift infinite weight by himself.
I know what Delta will counter, “Half of infinity is still infinity”. Funny, you use “equations and logic” when it suits you, and ignore it when it doesn’t.
Again, didn’t you just tell President Steve that sometimes comics do wacky things? You can’t apply mathematical equations andlogic? We have right on panel, Superman needing Captain Marvel’s help. He COULD NOT LIFT IT BY HIMSELF. End of story. Done. Its not a feat.
That’s like quoting a feat for Thor not being able to do something alone, and then Wonder Man helps him and they do it. WOW. So amazing. That would be a great piece of evidence if Thor were fighting Superman AND Captain Marvel AT ONCE!!! LOL
Also, has anyone else noticed that when someone points out something negative about Superman, Delta’s counter is always “Well Superman has gotten more powerful since then”.
You could show him an example of Superman getting knocked out last week and that would be his response. Pathetic.
lmao Big Lou, oh your idiocy!! I guess you either ran away or simply haven’t read being torn apart on Top 10 Most Powerful. Anyways…..
Yeah, shows your ignorance. Superman was a lot slower during DEATH OF SUPERMAN than he is now. Doomsday is faster than Hulk. And when Superman did speed-blitz Doomsday later on in another fight, it was quite devastating. And Doomsday>>>>>>>>>>>Hulk. Not to mention the fact that each example you give is of Superman not actually speed-blitzing.
Bottom line is idiots like you actually think that Hulk is the most powerful ever, when far from it. Wonder Woman, Sersi, Orion, Martian Manhunter, Superman, Thor, Flash, X-Man, Green Lantern(most established Lanterns), Silver Surfer, Doctor Strange, Doctor Fate, Captain Marvel, Eradicator, Quasar, and more, are more powerful than Hulk. And Superman couldn’t even beat Thor? um Superman’s stronger and more durable than Thor, he can certainly fuck-up Thor with his Heat Vision, he can simply speed-blitz Thor. Hulk? Hulk’s even worse!! Superman can also create enough static electricity to knock Hulk out. Thor’s knocked Hulk out with a lightning bolt before. Black Bolt knocked Hulk out by causing every potential lightning bolt in the area to hit Hulk. If Superman can produce enough static electricity to create a magnetic field powerful enough to contain a black hole, and there’d have been loss of energy when the static was converted, or enough to patch a hole in reality, then he sure as fuck can knock Hulk the FUCK out with it. Will he do this often? No. Is it something he can do to Hulk? Yes. He can also drain Hulk’s gamma radiation. Superman’s been shown to be able to drain energy himself, and on a scale that far exceeds Hulk’s gamma. We’re talking an explosion that was at MINIMUM going to disintegrate half a galaxy, but considering that the universe would’ve ended and a new one needed to be built(literally) it likely was going to destroy more. But Superman doesn’t need to do that stuff to just beat the shit out of Hulk for a majority of wins.
Hulk survived being in a black hole? If you mean that Defenders thing then it didn’t even SHOW to be a black hole. Superman’s BEEN surviving fine in black holes, and survived a “double black hole” to no ill effect. And escaped it. Hulk withstood Human Torch’s Nova Flame? So what? Superman’s Heat Vision is hotter than the core of a star. He’s used it to cauterize holes in the fabric of reality, surly Superman can fuck-up Hulk with it. Not to mention the fact that Superman’s survived inside stars himself, and was hurt but uninjured by the heat of “10 billion suns.” A WHOLE LOT more impressive than the heat of one star.
You keep claiming that Hulk has no end to his power, yet…..where’s the evidence? What feats actually SHOW Hulk having infinite strength? Narrative claims that don’t show ANYTHING don’t prove it’s true. Despite the controversy, Superman’s lifted infinite weight. Hulk? Not one Hulk fanboy has ever given any example similar to this.
Current Superman can’t move the Earth without help? If you’re referring to what I’m thinking of, Green Lantern making that harness, one would have to prove that Green Lantern was doing more than keeping the harness together. And then there’s the fact that Superman wasn’t just pulling the Earth’s weight, he was pulling it against Starbreaker’s power that was MOVING it. So even if Green Lantern was aiding beyond the harness, unless you can prove that Green Lantern’s power is greater than Starbreaker’s force that moved the Earth, Superman is at least capable of moving the Earth on his own under normal circumstances. If you mean during the end of OBSIDIAN AGE? Well, the Earth again was being thrown out of it’s orbit by a force. Superman, Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter had just been revived from THE DEAD and weren’t at full-strength. Kinda hard to use that against them.
Superman can only move dwarf planets smaller than our Moon? um Completely wrong. A weaker than current Superman had casually stopped the momentum and then casually thrown a space ship the size of a small moon. In fact Superman has stopped the Moon from moving away from increasing force that was originally pushing it out of orbit. And if you mean him moving WarWorld towards the end of OUR WORLDS AT WAR? You ARE aware that Pluto was turned into a weapon complete with armoring and whatnot, had engines that could move a planet-sized mass faster than light, and had virtually infinite energy having absorbed both the energy of Imperiex Prime(who had the “Power Of The Big Bang” and literally consumed GALAXIES) AND was connected to the vast energy of the planet Apokolips, right? That’s a fuck of a lot more impressive than moving the Earth. Oh yeah, even though he had assistance, he moved a planet 16 times the size of Earth, or maybe it was even 18 times, I’d have to check, while UNDER A RED SUN. That kinda fucks-up your argument. Not to mention the fact that he powered the “endless milwheels” of Mageddon, so he powered clockwork-like gears of something that was a lot bigger than the Earth/Moon system combined. So much for he can only move dwarf planets smaller than our Moon!!
Hulk breaking asteroids bigger than Earth? Ya know, no one but Hulk fanboys takes that seriously. Plus, it seems he had help from those rocket engine thingies. But so what? Superman shattered the boundaries of space and time. The impact of his blows had damaged the fabric of REALITY. A LOT more impressive than destroying an asteroid twice Earth’s size, if anybody but idiots like you really takes that seriously, considering the circumstances.
Superman actually did hold a black hole. Considering it was going to destroy the solar system, I’d have to say it being miniature didn’t do much to the power of it’s gravity. Oh, and ya know what? That black hole people make a big deal about Hulk closing? Doesn’t even show properties of a black hole nor was it referred to as a black hole. And like I said before, Superman’s survived in black holes when weaker than he is now, he’s survived in a DOUBLE black hole. Looks like your “come back when he can survive in a black hole” gets raped to FUCK. The ONLY thing I can give you is Hulk regenerating from dust, assuming it really did happen. That’s the only thing that Hulk’s really established an advantage over Superman with.
So no. Hulk would not pound Superman into nothing. Really, the opposite would happen. And I’m going to love to see your reaction when you see what’s going to happen to Hulk on the Top 10 Most Powerful list takes place. But Hulk VS Superman Prime or Superboy Prime? Hulk gets OWNED either way. It’s just ridiculous to think it’d be an interesting fight. Yeah, it would be. For anybody who wants to see Hulk cry like a little girl.
And the crossovers? Seemed to me like Superman was pretty dominate in their Pre-CRISIS fight. Despite what the Hulk fanboys hate, you bring-up DC VERSUS MARVEL, the fact is Superman OWNED Hulk there. And one of the most formidable versions of Hulk. The second most powerful and most formidable out of the core incarnations of the Hulk. When Superman was far weaker than he currently is.
Rick, you just really need to shut the fuck-up you dumbass blithering bitch. You call me the idiot and call me the pathetic one? Excuse me, but who’s the fucking inbred retard who actually made the statement of, “Silver Surfer would fucking own Odin?” You. Are you aware of Silver Surfer’s record against Thor? The last I checked it was at least two wins for Thor, one draw for Silver Surfer when Surfer was amped to an unknown degree by Loki’s magick, and one win for Surfer when Thor was being effected by out-side circumstances and got a sucker-shot energy blast on Thor. What is Silver Surfer’s record against Odin? 0-1, and a FUCKING OWNING. I can’t even call it a fight as it was one-shot knocked the fuck out with a single energy blast from a holding back Odin. What’s Odin’s record against Galactus? I do believe Odin lost the time they fought, but it sure as fuck wasn’t the Odin treated like a fly like you claimed. Odin had put-up far more of a fight, well I can’t really say than Silver Surfer put-up against Odin. Since he didn’t even get the CHANCE to fight. And this was in addition to calling Steve a fucking idiot, due to your 2nd grade level reading comprehension not letting you see Steve was actually SAYING that Odin is more powerful than Galactus. He was simply pointing-out something interesting, that a case very well could be made that Odin’s more powerful than Galactus, based on the feats of the two. And he even stated he doesn’t really believe Odin’s more powerful than Galactus. What part of that did you MISS?
Or what about the fact that you used racial slurs against Alberto, because you got frustrated over a comicbook argument? How pathetic AND stupid is that?
Or the fact that you ignored the vast majority of examples Alberto gave and focused on ONE example that doesn’t even prove you right to attack it? The whole Kryptonite and still invulnerable to needles thing is a lot more impressive than you’re making it out to be. For one, it’s one of the examples that Superman’s actually got a much higher degree of invulnerability than his strength. Look at him in the scan. He’s effected by the Kryptonite tumor in him to the point that he’s actually glowing green, radiating the energy. He needs help walking across the room. And yet the machine still can’t pierce his skin. There’s an even more impressive example later on, where Superman’s weak enough that he can’t fight-off Luthor’s bodyguards, but still survives a fall from the upper-levels of a skyscraper and is in relatively good shape.
What about the fact that you CLAIMED you can easily match any feat Alberto has…..then failed to actually DO it? Midgard Serpent’s big enough to encircle the Earth? How’s that impressive compared to resisting the gravitational pull of a “DOUBLE black hole?” Argue all you want against Superman didn’t really lift infinite weight, but you can’t deny that Thor throwing something that’s claimed to be immeasurable, when that’s even more vague than “weight of eternity” is something that can match lifting infinite weight. Speed? You’re actually trying to match Superman’s keeping-up with Flash by him being faster than Hela and claiming he’s as fast as the lightning he commands, and crossing NYC in a short period of time? Assuming Thor really IS as fast as the lightning he commands, do you know that light is MANY MANY MANY times faster than lightning? So much faster that it’s a little laughable to say someone who can move at the speed of lightning can keep-up with someone who can move even near the speed of light. And do you know how FAST Flash is? One example that’s actually relatively easy to measure has him traveling at over 20,000,000 times the speed of light, but this would be assuming the distances given were all in a straight line. And Superman can actually keep-up with Flash. When Superman was WAAAAAY slower than he is now, he flew around the equator in a time comparable to what you gave for Thor traveling across NYC, assuming you weren’t being literal. And you think you actually easily matched the feats?
Hey, you did match feats Alberto gave with the Mjolnir absorbing that bomb and using it to ignite a star. You finally got one-up on Alberto there!! Too bad you don’t win with me. Superman absorbed the energies of a bomb that was stated to at minimum disintegrate half the galaxy. But it seemed to be a lot more, considering the fact that Zauriel was trying desperately to convince the Angels of Heaven to aid Mankind against Mageddon. They were stated to be preparing to oversee the construction of a new universe and Zauriel had, when he thought it was a lost cause, stated he hopes that they treat the intelligent life of the next universe better than they’re treating Mankind. Oh, and Superman didn’t need to absorb any extra energy to cauterize a hole in the fabric of reality or contribute to the recreation of the Big Bang, both more impressive than reigniting a star.
But you know what else is pathetic and funny about you? How that fucking idiot you couldn’t even prove wrong, Steve, had given an argument YOU could not make against me, you jumped all over his nuts. Good Lord Rick, are you a cross-dressing hooker and he paid you a quarter? You go from insulting him, due to YOUR inability to comprehend what he said AND your complete and utter ignorance on what you insulted him about, to blowing him because he’s smarter than you and can actually come-up with an argument.
And the fact of the matter is the comic states the book has infinite pages. YOU’VE got to prove it doesn’t have infinite mass, if you’re such the fucking genius who cries to mommy to type-out math you can’t hope to comprehend once you have other peoples’ arguments explained to you slowly, with small words, trying to avoid two syllable words, until you FINALLY get an understanding crammed into that tiny mass of gray matter that somehow passes for a half-functioning brain of your’s.
Face facts, little girl. You can’t make any significant argument without someone else making it for you first.
And I’m pathetic because I KNOW more about Superman than you do? How is it my fault that he DOES increase in power, and half the arguments used against him are when he was weaker than he currently is? You’re just crying because I rape most of your arguments.
So, until you can actually come with something more substantial than speculation, opinion, and almost entirely in your case, someone ELSE’S argument, and go by what’s actually shown to prove your case instead of having your mommy type it out for you, I suggest you do this. Shut the fuck up to spend plenty of time to actually think of something worthwhile to say. To aid in this, I suggest you shove the tampon deep so your Johns can’t notice the blood, you bleeding bitch on the rag. The only one who’s truly stupid here is you, as you’ve demonstrated.
Is that a good enough owning to put you in your place, little girl?
Superman has destroyed Thor’s father Odin in a fight. I highly doubt Thor would give him any trouble.
I highly doubt anyone could swat the Silver Surfer. He has defeated 2 primordial gods at once, any one of them could crush Odin like a fucking bug.
And NO DUMBASS, the burden of proof is on you to prove IT DOES have infinite mass. Why? Because its NOT STATED. If its not stated, you must prove it. Learn basic debating rules, you fucking moron.
BTW bitch, Thor’s easily contained enough power to destroy a Galaxy. I own you so bad its ridiculous.
He can absorb the power to destroy a Galaxy on the spot, and then direct it to reignite a dead Star. Learn about comics.
Oh, Alberto, I thought Thor could only lift 100 tons. Journey Into the Mystery 110: He lifts 1 million tons.
That guy can’t even defend is argument (Talking to Rick). He just insult and he always talk about that infinite pages book. With all the arguments Delta said (Yes, I read them and there was quite alot of them), you never mentioned what he wrote. You just talked about the book.
Omega Flight #4: He possesses the unimaginable level of strength necessary enough to crush entire moons in his fists.
Omega Flight#5: He can shatter entire planets with the force of his blow.
Thor Vol.2 # 73: His strength is so immeasurable he defeated both the Thing and an enraged Hulk at once in unarmed combat without using any other power except his tremendous physical strength when needed while using only one arm.
He knocked out Namor with a single blow when needed (despite the fact that he was fully hydrated and it was even raining).
Thor #309: He has broken through the armor of the powerful entity known as Onslaught with his strength. Thor’s strength is so vast, that he has been able to break out of Adamantium alloy coils easily.
Thor’s strength is so incredible that pushing his strength to its limits WHILE WEAKENED, he was even able to overpower and turn the wheels of the World Engine which was powered by the Yggdrasil itself (the Asgardian representation of the cosmic axis, which with infinite power connects connects all the worlds and binds the fabric of the cosmos themselves.)
Oh, and you want the ULTIMATE THOR FEAT?:
Thor Vol 1 288:
The One Above All attempts to grab Thor, and Thor strikes back. The One Above All hurls machinery at Thor, but that doesn’t stop him. As Thor prepares to attack again, the One Above All shows Thor an image of a time long gone.
Still fail to prove anything, you little dumbass cum-guzzling retarded pussy bitch, AKA Rick. Little girl doesn’t know what the FUCK she’s talking about.
I don’t care what the fuck you steal from Steve to be all over his nuts because your dumbass is so desperate to downplay something that proves you wrong.
And I find it funny that at worst I give a comparable feat to what you’re making such a big deal about with Thor absorbing that bomb, and it very well can make that little feat of Thor’s look like absorbing a lit match, and you ignore that Superman did not NEED to absorb any addition energy to cauterize holes in reality or contribute to the recreation of the Big Bang. More impressive than reigniting a star.
And look you bitch on the rag, Silver Surfer was knocked the FUCK OUT, by one blast from Odin. And you do know that Thanos has beaten Silver Surfer nearly to death before, right? Hell, some argue he DID beat Surfer to death. Well, after Odin knocked Surfer out, he started smacking around Thanos like a bitch who owed her pimp money. All Thanos manages to do is survive. And you know what? Odin was holding back against them BOTH. I can find the scans of Surfer getting knocked OUT if I must. Hell, when I told Zeromage about you having said Surfer would own Odin, he laughed his ass off.
As to your arguments…..
Crushing Moons and shattering planets? Superman’s torn apart and destroyed planets in his fights at least three times, not even HITTING the planet it’s self. Including one time under a red sun, and another when he was in ORBIT above the planet.
So the fuck what that Thor’s strength showed to be superior to Thing and Hulk? Thor’s ALWAYS been significantly stronger than Thing. And Hulk’s strength is so fucking inconsistent that you’ve proven nothing. I can give an example of Thor having serious trouble with the Gravage Hulk when Thor’s got the help of Iron Man and Giant-Man, then the next issue Gravage Hulk AND Namor are EACH holding ONE of Thor’s arms with both, AND have the leverage advantage, and still struggle to keep Thor restrained. Superman having one-shot KOed Lobo and Valor by smashing their heads together is more impressive, not even factoring in that Superman was far weaker than then he is now.
Knocking out Namor? Why is that supposed to impress me? How about Superman knocking-out Mongul while he was effected by Kryptonite? Or when Superman was deprived of yellow solar energy for weeks and knocked-out Mongul, at a time when even at peak power he’s much weaker then than he is now?
Breaking through Onslaught’s armor and breaking Adamantium coils? Neither is as impressive as damaging the very fabric of reality.
So you gave an example that’s comparable to Superman’s powering Mageddon’s “endless millwheels.” Too bad that Superman’s stronger now than he was then.
What about the fact that you totally ignored my pointing-out your pathetic attempt at attacking Alberto’s arguments by making your whiny bitch-rant, expected from someone like you, because of the infinite weight lift, and focused on only one example, which was more impressive than you made it out to be? Or my various other examples? Or the fact that you can’t handle that me pointing-out Superman becoming more powerful fucks-up much of your arguments?
No you’re gonna whine like a little bitch. Just fucking shove a tampon up there and take some damn midol and come back when someone is willing to pretend to care about you.
But then you’re stupid enough that you ACTUALLY think Silver Surfer would own Odin. Hey, go take a look at the Top 10 Most Powerful List. Check who’s at #2 and #3. I’m the reason Zeromage switched those two. What have you accomplished in terms of influencing opinion? And that’s not even everything I’ve done.
LMAO!!!!!! Rick, One Above All throwing MACHINERY at Thor is the greatest feat? What does that PROVE? That he can take an Entity throwing something of unspecified durability at him? I’m going to guess that your argument for this being the greatest feat of Thor is a whole lot less substantial than the infinite page thing.
I can think of a couple feats for Thor off-hand more impressive than that, unless you’re leaving out some important details. Which you probably are to try to make yourself look smart. Wait, you’d be too dumb to think that up.
Wow, you guys have been busy
I have been working all day and in an hour I have to exercise, so I try to catch up with everything going on.
First of all
@Shadow Hunter
Thanks for the compliment, but Delta is waaaaaay ahead of me in comic knowledge. Acording to some I’m just the cheerleader
, but I try to do my best.
@President
I already gave the e-mail address so you can get the info for yourself. I actually request it yesterday.
@pRICK
You are actually funny, I thank God, He created fools like you, so I can get entertained
How in the hell lifting the midgrad serpent is compared to CONTAIN, LIFTH AND THROW A BLACK HOLE?
HOW IS THAT COMPARED TO THE BLACK HOLE FEAT???
Now on the Book argument
It says:
“a book with infinite number of pages, all ocupying the same space”
Then it says:
“This book contains EVERY book possible!”
This is the really important part so read it again:
“This book contains EVERY book possible!”
So that means it contains “PHYSICAL PAGES” made out of “papper” A single sheet of papper does not weight that much, but a bunck of them DO, How come an “infinite” number of pages cannot weigth “infinite”?
I’m using ” ” to state a something described in a fictional book, If you look carefully, you can actually see PAGES falling from the BOOK!!!
I wish a have a single fucking book to throw at pRICK’s Melon and then He can tell me how much a single fucking weights, now THIS IS EVERY SINGLE FUCKING BOOK IN THE UNIVERSE, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM!!! Not pRICK’s little black book with only one phone number
Now, is not that Superman needed help from Marvel to lift the book.
Basically says:
“If anyone can help me, is you.”
It did not said
“If you don’t help me I can’t”
Captain Marvel actually strugles , Superman did not.
Here is the second part of the scan
Where actually it says that the “monitor” inside it is bigger than the universes, a concious living void with the entire multiverses growing inside it.
Isn’t the universe a void with stuff on it?
Now before I show the scan.
Does anyone here agrees that Ultraman is the equal of Superman? or close to him?
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/Untitled-5.gif?t=1257992239
Ultraman is close to him but I don’t think he’s the equal of Superman. For the book, it’s really easy to figure that the book does have infinte pages since it has all the freaking possible books. It’s written in the screen you gave us. That guy is just too dumb to read.
So, while everyone replies to it. I’m just going to post a few Superman feats
This is a little one, back then when Superman was a weakling
Surviving a A FORCE EQUAL TO A MILLION NUCLEAR BLAST
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/08222005121910pm8yp.jpg?t=1257993784
And the rest:
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/Superman/089054127na.jpg?t=1257993938
“Weakling” Superman able to survive punches from PRE-CRISIS LEVEL KYPTONIANS??? :O
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/4032/2023rc.png
Superman resists actual reality control and adapts to it on the fly…
He even turns into Kingdom come Superman and Superman 1M while fighting.
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/9751/vo23kw.jpg
second part:
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8059/vo31hz.jpg
I actually posted this one yesterday, but with the wrong explination.
The actual feat is:
“Superman Resists transmutation from a skyfather level character”
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/5566/supermanvol2047p16ku8.jpg
Lois asks Superman for Champagne from another contry, and by the time she finishes her short sentence, Supes already got it, and has been waiting for a while.
http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/5899/supespeed6kt.jpg
Lex 2000 special: Superman made the trip from Earth to Saturn in well under 4 minutes. By comparison, light takes about 19 minutes to make this trip. He was pissed at the time. Notice also the moon, how he passes trough it and cuts it like butter.
Bad Superman!
http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/9600/moonbust4do6lr.jpg
Supes catching a moon sized ship in travel and tossing it casually…
http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/4267/moonmover0cc.jpg
Here is a cool speed feat from Action Comics #835. Louis Lane was shot on the other side of Metropolis but Supes heard the gun shot and blocked the bullet before it hit her.
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9105/superman7ch.jpg